Random Industry Discussion Thread

[Nephilimi]

I watch Jimquisition and other video blogs each week. A lot of time they bring up an interesting topic for discussion that wouldn’t warrant its own thread. I talked with Trip a while ago about making a random discussion thread about the industry. It will likely just be Twolf and I arguing but please feel free to contribute. Agreement makes us all intellectually bloated and weak, don’t be afraid to have a great discussion and offer a contrary position.

[Nephilimi]

I) I was talking with a co-worker about ME3 after finding out that he’s a gamer. I was lamenting the ending and he made a comment that got me thinking, although I don’t know that I necessarily agree. He said the last 10 minutes didn’t ruin an otherwise stellar series and the edited ending helped. I went on my usual rant about how embarrassing the edited ending is and how it undermines the integrity of the game. Then he said that it isn’t worth getting worked up about all this stuff because video games aren’t art. A game is too much of a collaborative process, with too many other interests (like making money) influencing the final product.

And I can see his point a little. Movies are collaborative as well but they have a writer or director. A figurehead/leader that dictates the final product and has a creative vision that people add to. I’m sure someone has the title of “creative director” for most games but they aren’t really the director of anything. Who is the creative mind behind Battlefield 3, or Dead Space 3, or Dragon Age 2… or most games? Especially when games like Mass Effect 3 have dozens and dozens of writers. How can you really get mad when a game like that adds or removes something to appeal to a broader audience, or doesn't take risks, or makes no sense, or just wants to make money?

The reason I disagree is because there are creative minds in the industry who are big enough to make the games they really want to make and it shows. Ken Levine, Kojima, David Cage, Suda or Miyamoto (just kidding about the last one, he’s a talentless hack and deserves no credit whatsoever). They have a vision that is then realized. But as for the majority of the games out there… what do you think? I mean presumably art requires an operating mind right? It can’t just be a conglomerate of special interests, otherwise anything could be art. A toilet paper company could be art.

There are also indie games and so on but my personal opinion is that those are irrelevant. I love movies, but don’t care for short films. I love novels, but don’t care for poetry. And I love big games but I’m entirely unimpressed with PSN downloadables like Journey. It is so hard and so incredibly impressive when someone creates a movie, novel or game because it is so hard to make and to pull off. A poem, short film or PSN game can be hacked out in minutes and get by entirely on novelty. (Sorry just an unrelated rant) So obviously there are creative sole visionaries in the indie gaming scene but I don't care.

[Krubixcube]

By that argument movies and music aren't art...so he's wrong? And to say that movies are ALWAYS determined by a writer-director...well...eh? Scripts go through so many versions the original writer barely recognizes the final product. Take a movie like Star Wars even, if it weren't for an awesome producer, Lucas would have run the movie into the ground (he hated directing). Not to mention any film is a collection of hundreds of people, and no matter how good of a director you are (unless you're Stanley Kubrick) you can't have complete control over them all.

His definition of art is...well, silly. Art is something that is made with some intent or another and provokes a response. Even if it's not the response the artist intended. Is a Caravaggio painting more art than Star Trek: Into Darkness? No. But you could argue one is better made. So there's good art and there's bad art just like there's good food and bad food but it's all food whether it's Mcdonalds or a five star Quiche.

...

...

So you finally did it Neph. You made a whole thread so you can shout at the kids on the sidewalk. Stop watching so much Jimquision, you talk about the british bastard like he's jesus.

[Krubixcube]

I)

There are also indie games and so on but my personal opinion is that those are irrelevant. I love movies, but don’t care for short films. I love novels, but don’t care for poetry. And I love big games but I’m entirely unimpressed with PSN downloadables like Journey. It is so hard and so incredibly impressive when someone creates a movie, novel or game because it is so hard to make and to pull off. A poem, short film or PSN game can be hacked out in minutes and get by entirely on novelty.

Also, for someone who just said toilet paper can be art, you kind of take a hard stance against things that people worked really hard on.

This is maybe one of the stupidest things you've said.

Poetry and short films can be hacked out in minutes can they? Go on then, write us a poem, code us a simple game. For someone who's made and worked on short films I feel like pissing in your coffee right now.

To have a discussion about the game industry and completely leave out the indie scene is like talking about the film industry without mentioning anything that isn't a blockbuster.

Don't worry Neph, with arguments this dumb I don't even NEED to be in this thread to argue with you.

[volvocrusher]

The reason I disagree is because there are creative minds in the industry who are big enough to make the games they really want to make and it shows. Ken Levine, Kojima, David Cage, Suda or Miyamoto (just kidding about the last one, he’s a talentless hack and deserves no credit whatsoever).

David Cage is one of gaming's big creative minds while Miyamoto is a talentless hack? Yeah, I can't take this seriously now. I'm out.

[Miraculous Kaydybug]

I)

There are also indie games and so on but my personal opinion is that those are irrelevant. I love movies, but don’t care for short films. I love novels, but don’t care for poetry. And I love big games but I’m entirely unimpressed with PSN downloadables like Journey. It is so hard and so incredibly impressive when someone creates a movie, novel or game because it is so hard to make and to pull off. A poem, short film or PSN game can be hacked out in minutes and get by entirely on novelty.

As a poet myself I take offense to this

[TripOpt55]

Besides all the stuff already said. I feel like maybe you are undervaluing other creative directors or maybe overvaluing the ones you mentioned (I can't tell which way it is). Personally, I know who directed my favorite games. They aren't as much at the forefront as some of the guys you mentioned, but I still feel like they have a big influence on those games.

[volvocrusher]

I)

There are also indie games and so on but my personal opinion is that those are irrelevant. I love movies, but don’t care for short films. I love novels, but don’t care for poetry. And I love big games but I’m entirely unimpressed with PSN downloadables like Journey. It is so hard and so incredibly impressive when someone creates a movie, novel or game because it is so hard to make and to pull off. A poem, short film or PSN game can be hacked out in minutes and get by entirely on novelty.

As a poet myself I take offense to this

So does George Lucas

[Miraculous Kaydybug]

Lucas is still a better director than David Cage

[volvocrusher]

Of course, he has more polygons to show emotion.

[Captain N]

The reason I disagree is because there are creative minds in the industry who are big enough to make the games they really want to make and it shows. Ken Levine, Kojima, David Cage, Suda or Miyamoto (just kidding about the last one, he’s a talentless hack and deserves no credit whatsoever).

David Cage is one of gaming's big creative minds while Miyamoto is a talentless hack? Yeah, I can't take this seriously now. I'm out.

Pretty much this.

[Rainjar]

The reason I disagree is because there are creative minds in the industry who are big enough to make the games they really want to make and it shows. Ken Levine, Kojima, David Cage, Suda or Miyamoto (just kidding about the last one, he’s a talentless hack and deserves no credit whatsoever).

David Cage is one of gaming's big creative minds while Miyamoto is a talentless hack? Yeah, I can't take this seriously now. I'm out.

+1.

Also the bit about indies and Journey, boo. To say you can throw indie games together in minutes is silly. Journey took something like 3 years to make and arguably had more meaningful thought poured into it than most triple As.

[ajapam]

I can't agree. I could draw parallels to music for most of what you said. BUT...

I remember talking with greenman recently and we got on the topic of games made with no "vision" in mind. Where they just throw in a bunch of stuff that works in other games, but they don't really mesh together all that well. I'm sure one talented creative mind behind it all could put some of those games (and possibly the story/writing) on the right track at least a little. So there's that...

[volvocrusher]

Yeah, but we used Dead Space as our negative example so Neph wouldn't want to be a part of that conversation.

[Nephilimi]

Jesus Twolf, you always get so rude and personal. I didn’t say I agree with him but it just got me thinking. The “what is art” discussions are always so theoretical that it quickly becomes pointless. My point is that unlike movies, or music, games so rarely have that visionary leader that is making something. Instead it’s just a conglomerate of different interests culminating in a project. In that way it’s no different than a corporation (adding toiler paper company is a little dramatic). Think about the BF3 singleplayer. No one ever sat down and said, hey I want to tell a story about x. This will show off the physics, this will show off the lighting, it needs to be this length to meet this requirement, we need a this kind of character, etc. It’s bad art, to use your language. Hundreds of people get their fingers into the making of even a moderate movie but it still had a director, a point, a purpose at some point even though the end product might be very different.

And haha it’s so fucking original and hilarious to hate on David Cage. Gold stars for everyone. My point was just to list a few examples of people that really seem to be able to make a game they really want to make start to finish. People that are allowed to have a lot of creative control. I’ve never played a Suda game for example. But Trip I was thinking about the same thing you mentioned. There could be lots of directors that have a lot of control and vision but they aren’t necessarily as well known.

I used Dead Space as a negative example in my original post as well. All theory aside, I like seeing video game celebrities that have enough pull to make something they want to make. Partly why I can appreciate Levine’s Bioshock so much. A lot of games would benefit from some vision, as opposed to just being created for the sake of whatever… interests.

FYI –Jimquisition and I aren’t friends anymore due to all his David Cage hating.

[volvocrusher]

You do realize the David Cage hating spawned from you calling Miyamoto a talentless hack, right? Not because we hate on him every time we hear him because we don't. He was just the easiest target of the ones you mentioned.

[Nephilimi]

As for the other two hot button topics, that I randomly mentioned for shits and giggles.

1) Explain to me why Miyamoto gets all this crazy respect? I'm not being flippant. I don't get it.

2) I’m not going to vehemently defend my stance on indie games, poetry or short films. But it’s just the way I feel about things. They aren’t irrelevant, but I have so much more respect for larger projects because they are so much more difficult and involved. Journey traveling through a bunch of picturesque backgrounds, big freaking deal. I could make a journey type game in my sleep, I wouldn’t dare think I could pull off a game like Uncharted. As much as I’m not the biggest Uncharted fan… how much tougher is it to build a consistent narrative over ten hours. Have dialogue, characters, plot, set pieces, interactive environments, on and on and on. It’s so so much harder to pull off. A short film requires an idea, enough to get it through a dozen minutes. My friends and I used to make short films in high school for fun. A feature film requires so so much more effort and skill to pull off. I have almost no respect for poetry. Just my opinion.

[volvocrusher]

That question doesn't deserve an answer. Birds fly, fish swim, and Miyamoto's the most important guy in video game history since whoever the hell invented them.

[TheMatt]

Miyamoto a talentless hack?

[Miraculous Kaydybug]

I have almost no respect for poetry. Just my opinion.

Is adding the "Just my opinion" part supposed to make me feel less insulted cause it doesn't it actually makes it worse. I put a LOT of effort and time into my work. Don't like it fine, but if you're gonna treat it like it's worthless or should have no meaning. I am going to take offense

[SanAndreasX]

What. The. Fuck.

[TripOpt55]

First I'm taking your name out of the title. Everyone knows everyone here. Everyone knows who starts a thread. I appreciate anyone who decides to spearhead some discussion, but no one needs to put their name in a thread title.

I have always thought because you got into gaming so late and never enjoyed gaming's retro era that maybe the importance of that sort of stuff will never make sense to you. You are an intelligent guy though. If you can't recognize why some of Miyamoto's games are important and how many modern games and a large part of the industry itself was built upon the shoulders of those games, it is kind of baffling. Like we aren't going to tell you anything you don't know already. What can we say.

[Nephilimi]

Okay... well... thanks for all the intelligent responses, aside from Trip. I guess I'm the ignorant one. TheMatt always solid for a quick fuck off response.

"Talentless hack" is an obvious overstatement, sorry. Miyamoto made important games... thirty or twenty years ago, when the video game industry was brand new. He made a couple of the highest quality 2D platformers that were heavily marketed and stuck with people and Zelda. Since then he's been the heart of Nintendo, in other words tweaking these same games and rolling in money. Nintendo is a perpetual motion machine, the smallest amount of innovation, high quality and nostalgia.

But he’s paraded around like some God. Aside from adapting Mario and Zelda, which would sell regardless, what? Super Mario Galaxy, okay. Has he done anything outside of the box, anything innovative, anything that’s expanded or changed gaming in the last ten years. And no the WiiFit doesn’t count.

Miyamoto sir! Miyamoto! What are you going to do next sir, please, please tell us!

Ummm…. A new Zelda game.

OH MY GOD how does he do it!!! Where I can buy a WiiU! What next?!

Umm… A new Mario game,

The most important man in gaming period. And then?!! Oh I’m breathless with excitement.

Ummm… A new Zelda game.

WOW!!

Right now there are people that are infinitely more important than Miyamoto is and when I look to what the industry is going to produce next, Miyamoto’s name doesn’t even cross my mind.

It’s like worshipping Walt Disney for creating Mickey Mouse. Obviously Mickey Mouse is iconic, but he’s really just the one cartoon from back in the day that stuck. And maybe there’s good reason behind that, but it’s not like Walt Disney deserved to be worshipped as some kind of cartoon making savant prior to his death. The folks that saved Disney in the 80s need to be worshipped. Or the Pixar guys that do something new everytime and always make it relevant.

Or even better it’s like Stan Lee. I love that guy but he just created a bunch of crap and some of it stuck. You can’t deny for a second how iconic his characters are. But, he hasn’t done anything relevant in twenty years other than put his name on stuff and produce certain things. Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, etc. Those are the geniuses. The great thing about Stan Lee is he fully admits all his luck and he has almost no ego. If I’m looking to get back into comics and find what’s good, I’m not going to look for the Stan Lee’s name.

No need to have my name in the title, sorry Trip. I don’t know why I put it in there. I guess because the thread would a place for me to post the shit on my mind and then people could shit on it. I'm going to say some inflammatory things here, so come at me with some good discussion. I think everyone knows my opinion on the WiiU as the biggest waste of skin and the worse thing ever, but I'm not trolling the next gen forum everytime some says something about it. Unfortunately there's a bunch of Nintendo fans here haha. So maybe this can be the place I call Miyamoto a goof and then you can call Kojiam a goof and I will tell you why you're wrong...

[Nephilimi]

I have almost no respect for poetry. Just my opinion.

Is adding the "Just my opinion" part supposed to make me feel less insulted cause it doesn't it actually makes it worse. I put a LOT of effort and time into my work. Don't like it fine, but if you're gonna treat it like it's worthless or should have no meaning. I am going to take offense

That's great you put a lot of work into your poetry. I don't know why you need my validation. I have no time whatsoever for peotry. Just does not interest me. If that offends you then fair enough. It is really just my opinion. A lot of people enjoy peotry.

I put a lot of effort into trophy whoring. It's not worthless and meaningless to me, but I'm not going to stand up to anyone that says otherwise or doesn't appreciate it. Or maybe you think law or sports is a waste of time. I've devoted my life to those things, but I'm not going to get all bent out of shape about it.

My intention isn't to denigrate you. But I stand by my comment that I'm much much more impressed by a novelist than a poet. Again it really just my opinion, and you're welcome to think less of me because I can't appreciate how difficult poetry is or how much depth there is to it.

[volvocrusher]

The thing is though, it's a matter of perspective. Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 were really fresh takes on platformers to me and a hell of a lot more relevant to me than anything Kojima's made this gen and anything Levine, Suda, and Cage have made period. The only gen where he hasn't been heading a game (and I mean really in charge, not just overseeing a little) was the Gamecube, so he's stayed relevant to me. If we go by the Wii U and we're still in that situation, then you'll have a point. But you're jumping the gun a little early on this in my opinion.

[Nephilimi]

It is a matter of perspective.

Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 were really fresh takes on platformers to me and a hell of a lot more relevant to me than anything Kojima's made this gen and anything Levine, Suda, and Cage have made period.

I couldn't disagree with that statement more.

But can you agree that Miyamoto hasn't taken any risks or gone outside his comfort zone in the least. Whereas Kojiam, Suda, Levine and Cage make things that no one else has done and things that people might not like.

[Krubixcube]

As for the other two hot button topics, that I randomly mentioned for shits and giggles.

1) Explain to me why Miyamoto gets all this crazy respect? I'm not being flippant. I don't get it.

2) I’m not going to vehemently defend my stance on indie games, poetry or short films. But it’s just the way I feel about things.

If you can't back up your opinion, it's not a valid opinion.

I've had someone argue to me that they thought the Boondock Saints was the best movie ever made. Suffice to say, I didn't agree with him, but to his credit when I asked him "why" he was able to express his opinion. And I respected that. We didn't agree, but he had an opinion.

I only get annoyed because you keep throwing out these huge statements and then don't back it up with anything beyond "well that's what I think" or "it just is". I LOVE having a good discussion but discussion means a back and forth. And for someone who's so invested in your films and games to the point where you're happy to make a thread about the whole industry, you seem to know very little about how these industries actually work, or their history. To love novels, without at least recognizing poetry's importance considering that it was from Epic Poems that many of our structures for novels and films come from today is just...well, I don't see where you're coming from logically, regardless of your opinion of not liking it.

I take offense at what you've said as well. And I don't care if you don't like poetry, or short films, or indie games but I think people react to you so strongly, and I personally react so strongly, because you've essentially said that we're wrong for liking it, and it has no value. There is a HUGE difference in saying "I'm not big on poetry" (I'm not either) and saying "poetry is a waste of time that someone could hack out in minutes." To that, as someone who worked creatively, and still does...well...that feels like a personal assault. It's like saying "Well, it's just my opinion that things you care about and invest time into are stupid and any idiot could do it". Even if you don't mean to be saying that, that's how it comes across.

Considering the people who write novels tend to love poetry, and the people who make games love playing other games, and the people who make movies love short films and other films outside the public spectrum, I don't understand how you can discuss the industry. It's like saying "let's discuss the book industry, but only fiction novels because I don't like non-fiction, and biographies are stupid". Yeah, you're entitled that, but just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not important or that other people don't love it. You're building an island that only you can inhabit.

As for Miyamoto...well, he is respected for a reason. We respect old film directors, and authors even though they're dead...I don't see why people praising Miyamoto is so hard to see? Yeah, he hasn't been as relevant lately, and maybe he is recycling his old tricks but that's the era he grew up in. And far from being "right when video games were new". The pioneers of the industry were Atari, or the guys making games in computer clubs at American universities. Miyamoto's influence came when games were into their home console phase which isn't really the very beginning. But man...guy made Mario, and Donkey Kong, and Zelda. Those three games are templates that modern designers still use (for better or worse) the guy is influential and respected for a reason and those games still hold up today. Yeah, not PERFECTLY but they have great feel and are well designed and have good art.

Again, you may not mean to come across that way, but with the way you've worded thing I can't help but take it a bit personal. And as a logical person, I can't help but be a bit taken back by the lack of it in ANY argument that includes the points "just because".

[Rainjar]

You do realize the David Cage hating spawned from you calling Miyamoto a talentless hack, right? Not because we hate on him every time we hear him because we don't. He was just the easiest target of the ones you mentioned.

Apart from me, fuck David Cage. If that piece of shit writing was in any other medium it'd have been torn a new asshole but because it's a video game and gamers are so desperate for any sign of story and characters that it's borderline pathetic it gets praised for being a 10/10 emotional masterpiece so fantastic. He's a pretentious lying prick and the sooner he leaves the industry the better.

2) I’m not going to vehemently defend my stance on indie games, poetry or short films. But it’s just the way I feel about things. They aren’t irrel***nt, but I have so much more respect for larger projects because they are so much more difficult and involved. Journey traveling through a bunch of picturesque backgrounds, big freaking deal. I could make a journey type game in my sleep, I wouldn’t dare think I could pull off a game like Uncharted. As much as I’m not the biggest Uncharted fan… how much tougher is it to build a consistent narrative over ten hours. Have dialogue, characters, plot, set pieces, interactive environments, on and on and on. It’s so so much harder to pull off. A short film requires an idea, enough to get it through a dozen minutes. My friends and I used to make short films in high school for fun. A feature film requires so so much more effort and skill to pull off. I have almost no respect for poetry. Just my opinion.

No, you really couldn't. You can say that a triple A is harder to do from a technical stand-point, gotta fit all Michael Bay explosion press X to win no danger allowed set pieces in and all, but honestly that means absolutely nothing to me. Design and execution comes before how many polygons you can fit on the screen.

Think of how much padding triple As can get away with due their mechanics, think of how many rooms there are in most games where there's nothing actually new just more enemies to deal with. Now look at Journey, it's mechanics are pretty damn simple and there's no dialogue. Now you need to think of a way to have everything perfectly paced, somehow keep the simple gameplay fresh, remind the players of what their goal is with no little hud objective bullshit, then you have the whole online aspect you need to consider and think about how what consequences and meaning that has for the game. It's a more challenging task than you'd think.

You know they make all the make pieces first in Uncharted and then just think of some way to string it all together, which is SO extremely evident in Uncharted 3 that it hurts. And the characters are just basic Hollywood-esque cut outs? And do I even need to mention how Nathan Drake is a fucking mass murdering psycho-path yet that's never dealt with in the narrative. And it's not like most triple As, or Indies for that matter, have a narrative worth anything.

All that matters to me is the design and execution, I don't care how many people made it. I mean that 5 minute game called Passage made by one guy is even in my top 10.

But can you agree that Miyamoto hasn't taken any risks or gone outside his comfort zone in the least. Whereas Kojiam, Suda, Levine and Cage make things that no one else has done and things that people might not like.

Kojima is a wannabe movie director who can't write worth shit, same goes for Cage. Levine took the amazing risk of making a brodude shooter set in the sky, wow. I don't even like Miyamoto and Ninty that much aside from Zelda, and I even agree with you on most of the things you say about them, but if you're gonna tear him down at least offer people who aren't even more irrel***nt and arguably worse.

[Miraculous Kaydybug]

You can't say something that offends people and try to justify it by saying "well that's just my opinion" you could be saying "Black people are all uncultured savages, but well that's just my opinion" it's basically the same thing here. You also can't defend this by saying "oh well that wouldn't offend me" We aren't you that point is completely invalid.

My creative writing, poetry and prose is very important to me, and for someone to say any of it's "a waste of time that can be hacked out in minutes" it is gonna offend me no matter how you dress it up as your opinion or whatever. You can't tell people that things they are passionate about are worthless or deserve no respect and expect them to accept it as your "opinion" that's not going to work ever.

[Krubixcube]

I think Levine has done some interesting things with game narrative, and I think he's a better writer than Kojima. He's not perfect, but I was really affected emotionally by the Bioshock games. They are not on the same level intellectually as the best novels or anything but...yeah.

As for Cage, I haven't played his games, so I can't comment. I don't know about the man as a person either. But Heavy Rain is an experiment in game narrative...so it has its right to exist just as much as anything else. I don't HATE Kojima, I just wish he'd get back to making cool games instead of writing scripts. Every subsequent MGS game that's been released for me feels slightly behind the times in terms of AI/design etc.

And also, games are growing up. When I buy a platformer my brain is firing on different cylinders than when I'm buying a game like Bioshock. I'm playing them for different reasons, with different mindsets despite them both being "video games". The industry is growing up in that respect.

As for the indie thing...well, a game like Bastion both narratively and artistically made a lot more splash than most triple A things did. I don't see why we should undervalue it because it's shorter and doesn't have the best 3D graphics around. But I'm an all is fair kind of person. I appreciate the big triple A releases too. If a game does something right, and I get a good response out of it I don't care what it is, indie or big. I think Rainjar's point about good design is obvious here. A good game, mechanically, narratively or otherwise can and should come from anywhere. To discount indie games because they're cheaper and don't have the money for a perfect lighting system or score is very nearsighted.

Also Neph, people have made feature films for fun too. But the difference between YOUR short films and say...well, a good short film is staggering.

Same in Indie games. Check XBLA, most of that is shit, and let's be honest, your short films in high school were likely those. But then there's games like Bastion, Super Meat Boy, Limbo, Amnesia that really stand out. They're both shorter games, small teams but there's a lot more talent in there.

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