Re: Random Industry Discussion Thread

[TripOpt55]

You can't be mad that people didn't give you a worthwhile response about Miyamoto given your first two comments about him Neph. You didn't infer your issues were more of a what have you done for me lately kind of thing. You were inferring he never did anything worth a damn. Which is obviously ridiculous.

I think most of his legacy is 15 years ago though, but that is fine. That is worth the respect people give him. He hasn't directed a game in forever (bigger Nintendo fans than I can correct me if I'm wrong). His last huge games were Mario 64 and OoT... which are obviously huge and will probably have lasting effects forever. He seemed to be involved with the concepts for Pikmin and Galaxy too right? Is he more of an overseer now though? I am not sure. He seems to only get producer credits on most recent Nintendo games. Either way I don't see the guys Neph mentioned ever having the kind of impact or resume that he has when we look back in 20 years.

[Krubixcube]

I think you're right Trip, he produces more now than designs/directs.

[volvocrusher]

Yeah, he's producing at most nowadays. He was most heavily involved in Pikmin, Wii Sports, Wii Fit, and both Mario Galaxies in the last two gens. I think the reason he's not pushing that legacy further though is because he wants to make games for himself lately. Pikmin was made because he gardened, Nintendogs because he got a dog, and Wii Fit because he liked measuring himself, and the Wii in general because he liked seeing his wife and dad enjoy video games for the first time with Nintendogs and Brain Age so wanted to try and create something to lure more people into games from what I read in an EGM interview years back. Not all of these games are for us, but he's at least making what he wants and has inspiration on everything, so I respect that.

Also, saying he hasn't made anything lately isn't really fair when Mario Galaxy 2 was made in 2010, right before Kojima and right after Cage released their last games. I mean, it would be naive to say there's no chance he won't show off something for the Wii U at E3, especially with how Nintendo's been announcing games close to their release recently.

[Krubixcube]

Also, Imma be controversial here. Casual games are not killing the industry. I still stand by my stance that casual games STILL bridge people into the gaming world. If you say "I play video games" and someone responds with "yeah, me too! I play Plants vs. Zombies on my phone" we shouldn't get angry at them for not being "true" gamers, we should just see the positive side where that person is trying to connect to that hobby. They might not play Zelda, but they understand how someone can enjoy a video game...so good enough!

[pspiddy]

First off, this thread is friggin HILARIOUS! Neph reminds me of those insurance ads in Game Informer where the chick has a word bubble with phrases like "PWN newbs".

I'm with T-wolf on casual games. Well put.

[Miraculous Kaydybug]

I'm just going to put this out here. I used to be a casual. I never played anything more than Nintendo games, and THPS until I got an Xbox to play DoAX, uh yeah but still I didn't start playing games as a major hobby until 2004 at the very least never really became a huge fan JRPGs till 06 either which is now probably my main genre. Till then I mainly only played games with my family. I'm glad I got into this hobby though I've met a lot of cool people through gaming some of which I don't want to live without, but I digress acting like "filthy casuals" are a pox upon this industry is just crazy. Not all casuals end up like me sure, but it's how a lot of people get into the hobby like it or not.

[pspiddy]

The way I see it, hating on casual games is like hating on pop music; it may not be your thing but that shouldn't prevent others from enjoying it. I mean, as a musician, I play mostly outlaw country/rock and I still listen Lady GaGa and other bullshit. Why not? The more the merrier!

<insert Rodney King quote here>

[volvocrusher]

I agree with T-Wolf on how casual games can bridge the gap. Remember those New Super Mario Bros Wii commercials where a family was playing that game to assign chores? Yeah, that wouldn't have happened without Wii Sports.

[TripOpt55]

Can I ask what Miyamoto's roles were on the Galaxy games exactly? I can't quite figure it out. Writer... He seems to be listed as a designer of some kind.

[Rainjar]

Pikmin was made because he gardened, Nintendogs because he got a dog, and Wii Fit because he liked measuring himself, and the Wii in general because he liked seeing his wife and dad enjoy video games for the first time with Nintendogs and Brain Age so wanted to try and create something to lure more people into games from what I read in an EGM interview years back. Not all of these games are for us, but he's at least making what he wants and has inspiration on everything, so I respect that.

Huh. That's kinda cute. I hate the Wii a little less now.

Also, Imma be controversial here. Casual games are not killing the industry. I still stand by my stance that casual games STILL bridge people into the gaming world. If you say "I play video games" and someone responds with "yeah, me too! I play Plants vs. Zombies on my phone" we shouldn't get angry at them for not being "true" gamers, we should just see the positive side where that person is trying to connect to that hobby. They might not play Zelda, but they understand how someone can enjoy a video game...so good enough!

I might be getting the definition between casual and simple mainstream stuff blurred in this post, just a heads up.

I think this is due to how popular and praised they are while other types of games are still looked down upon, so it's the lack of appreciation the rest of the medium still gets while simple colourful reskins of games that have existed for ages are treated like the cream of the crop that annoys 'true/hardcore gamers'. Someone puts 50 hours into Angry Birds? 10th prestige in a Cawadoody game? That's fine and socially acceptable. You put 50 hours into a JRPG, Dwarf Fortress, or something slightly obscure with complicated mechanics? You're just looked at as kinda odd. I've never seen this be a problem for other people who are heavily into other mediums, or maybe it is and I've just never picked up on it because I tend to be interested in them as well.

This problem will probably fade away over time once video games become more and more accepted and we start getting actual award shows (As well as actual games) which praise more innovative, creative, and emotional games that prove it's a medium to be taken seriously and not just some skinnerbox shit for grown kids. Heck, while there's still a way to go there's no denying there's been a fairly big improvement on that front over the past couple of years.

But yeah, there's nothing really inherently wrong with casual games in the slightest. I put about 7 hours into Plants vs Zombies on Steam and enjoyed it, it has a neat sense of humour.

Also can we agree that terms like casual/true/hardcore gamer and just the term gamer in general are fucking disgusting? Seriously, whenever someone says "I'm a gamer" I just want to punch them.

[Krubixcube]

Yeah, it's like saying "I'M A MOVIE WATCHER!" who gives a shit. I think the best favor the gaming community can do itself is just to talk about games in the same way they talk about everything else. I.e. normally.

But you make a very good point about the social end, and you're right, it'll grow up as the average gamer does too. People who grew up playing games are having kids now and they're not going to 180 on it because of that. So yeah...time heals all wounds for sure.

[ajapam]

This problem will probably fade away over time once video games become more and more accepted and we start getting actual award shows (As well as actual games) which praise more innovative, creative, and emotional games that prove it's a medium to be taken seriously and not just some skinnerbox shit for grown kids. Heck, while there's still a way to go there's no denying there's been a fairly big improvement on that front over the past couple of years.

Speaking of actual award shows, the Canadian Videogame Awards are airing soon. I don't know what they're like, but I might check them out just to see. They have awards for things like writing and innovation, and the host is the voice of Adam Jensen, so I assume it's better than the Samuel L Jackson (and some videogames) Award show.

[Krubixcube]

He fucking better do the whole voice in the Adam Jenson voice. Which...having heard him talk isn't too far of a stretch. I wish I had that voice. My girlfriend would love me forever (she complained about it after beating Deus Ex "WHY DON'T YOU SOUND LIKE ADAM JENSON?")

It was a very traumatic experience.

[Nephilimi]

Ughh this thread got out of control. I’m going to try and respond as much as I can without staying up until 2 am again.

I have backed up most of the statements I made and I’ve provided a basis for my opinion. Poetry has no structure and rules (aside from specific types of poetry, obviously) and it’s entirely subjective. It’s like abstract art, there’s no real method by which to judge it. That’s why I’m not impressed by it.

Late night unedited rambling on these forums aside I would like to think I’m a pretty good writer. I won a number of rinky dink school and region awards for writing in grade school. I won the best I.B. history paper for the region and a small cash prize. I’ve been repeatedly recognized for my strong legal writing skills, won another essay cash prize in law school, and I might get slotted into appeals work. But if you gave me a week to write a short story, I’m not arrogant or deluded enough to suggest that it would be anything but crap. And given an unlimited amount of time, I don’t think I have the intelligence or skill to ever pull off writing a novel. That’s why I respect how difficult it is to write something with substance and length. But I have no doubt that given an hour I could come up with a poem and you would no objective way to say it’s any better or worse than anything else. Again it’s like abstract art. I’m pretty good at drawing but my portraits still look pretty weak. But I could slap some paint on a page and call it day. You might find my opinion incredibly ignorant, but there you have my reasons. Lack of structure, length, objective rules or objective depth. Also I don’t see how the fact that modern storytelling came out of poems means that I have to like poetry. It’s like telling me I must not like movies because I couldn’t appreciate The Artist (which I actually have never seen). And obviously I can recognize poetry’s importance, suggesting poetry wasn’t or isn’t important would be like suggesting television isn’t important to visual media.

I appreciate how the “you’re an idiot… just my opinion” approach is a huge piss off, I’ve commented before on how it annoys me. But this really is my opinion on poetry. What do you want me to say? FACT poetry is a waste of time! People like poetry, that’s fine. I think baseball is the worst sport. The reasons for my opinion are the fatsos that can play it, the slow pace and the fact that there’s about 3 minutes of actual physical activity during the course of a game. I’m not going to say; FACT baseball isn’t a sport. That’s my opinion on baseball, tons of people love it and would spit venom at my comments. It isn’t a groundless opinion, but it’s just my opinion and I will continue to have massive amounts of respect for any individual who can finish a professional UFC match, and almost no respect for any individual that can finish a professional baseball match for obvious reasons. I don’t know what else you want from me.

To be quite frank, I’m not saying “in my opinion” to avoid hurting people’s feelings, I’m just acknowledging it’s a very personal and subjective preference and I’m not really pushing the point beyond that. Some discussions have a much stronger objective element to them. My intention isn’t to try and specifically target or belittle anyone, but at the same time I don’t really care if you find my opinion on poetry offensive. A strong opinion presumes offending people that don’t share it. My dismissal of baseball is going to offend and enrage people that spent their lives playing and training for baseball. That’s fine. They shouldn’t need my validation. There’s no reason why I should be forced to pretend to like something or respect the effort put into something I don’t respect. I’m not trying to sleep with any poets or baseball players.

I’m not even going to touch short films because Twolf will kill me. But going back to indie games, my initial comment (rereading it… comes off completely wrong) is basically that indie games are irrelevant to this discussion about a lack of artistic direction because, obviously, indie games have artistic direction when they are being made by one, or a handful of individuals. It is much easier to maintain an artistic direction for a two hour psn game than a 100 hour rpg.

But similar to the poetry discussion I’m generally unimpressed with psn games as compared to standard games because standard games are so much harder to pull off. Journey is so incredibly overrated. I’ve maintained that the initial concept of traveling through a silent world with little guidance and your communication-less interactions with others was an interesting concept. An interesting concept alone is enough to carry a psn game, not a full retail title. Once you remove that concept, nothing in the way Journey is executed is impressive. It’s not difficult to slap a floating triangle into random picturesque backgrounds, not having to worry about anything else like pacing, story, characters, gameplay. Bastion on the other hand is better in every way than most Triple A games.

I’m not completely discounting indie games. There’s plenty of awesome indie game and indie games I’ve thoroughly enjoyed. And I’m really not discounting games based on their budget or graphics. I’m just saying, it is harder to make a great or even a mediocre retail game. Uncharted, for all its faults, is more impressive to me than Limbo. Again, this is all just derailed because of couple broad, offensive statement I made. The initial and important point was that “more artistic direction” doesn’t apply to indie games because of their smaller teams. It’s like saying poems are irrelevant to a discussion about maintaining character arches.

As for Miyamoto, I made my point already. We respect old film directors and authors for sure. We can’t dispute their legacies. But we don’t treat them like modern day gods that have all the answers. Again, you’re not going to go to Stan Lee for advice on how to make your modern comic just because the guy invented Spiderman back in an entirely different era. And no modern day comic writer, no matter how much more relevant, will ever surpass Stan Lee legacy in fifteen years. Coming out the gate swinging and throwing around “talentless hack” wasn’t the best approach. I think you articulated what I wanted to say Trip and how I came at it wrong.

[Nephilimi]

Haha, one of my other topics I had saved for this thread was how "casual" gaming has indirectly hurt the industry. Here it goes:

Jimquisition was talking about how Darks Souls sold 2 million and it was a success, while Tomb Raider sold 3.5 million or whatever and it was considered a failure. He attributed it to a mismanagement of money and a bloated industry. I agree. I'm starting to feel less afraid of a "collapse of the gaming industry" and losing triple A games. What we're looking at is a collapse of the bad business practices that have poisoned everything. But look at these kickstarter projects that are looking to make solid Triple A-esque games. I think those will fill in the game once EA and Ubisoft implode on their own incompetence. At least I hope.

The video games industry makes much more money than the movie industry now, so these publishers want to act like movie studios (throwing around money and huge budgets) ignoring how different both industries are. The most glarring difference being how disposible movies are. Every summer we are going to shell out 15 bucks to see a blockbuster. We might not sell out 60 bucks each fall for the next shooter because we are still playing the old one.

But the other problem is; what is the video games industry? Those profits include "casual games". It seems like publishers are completely delusional and they are chasing money that doesn't exist. For example, literally hundreds of thousands of people bought the Wii that would never buy another console. But publishers seem to think those are still units to be had. The Wii sold x million so we should be able to sell at least x-1 million, ignoring that the Wii sold so many systems to "non-gamers".

The same applies (and Jimquisiton referenced this) to Call of Duty. Every year Call of Duty sells x million. That doesn't mean that if a game tries really hard and it's really really good, they can sell x-1 million. The majority of people that buy Call of Duty do not purchase any other game.

They are setting these targets and budgets based on the casual market and it's foolish. So it's not casual games' fault. It's casual games confusing publishers fault. The success of casual gaming has created unrealistic expectations.

And I agree entirely with your assessment Ranger, but see it as a justification for the terms casual and hardcore gamer still existing. In my mind there's a fairly clear divide between people that "play games, own consoles, read up on games, etc" (game enthusiasts) and the people that just pick up the occasionaly cell phone game or casual pc game. Aside from my wife, I don't know anyone under 30 that isn't a "gamer" in some small way.

We don't say, "I'm a movie watcher" but to a lesser degree there are people that just watch movies and then people that care about movies, read reviews, know directors, try to see indie films etc. I don't think my wife could name more than three directors, she just watches movies to watch them. There's a divide there even though it's not as strong the gaming industry. And I agree that the divide in the gaming industry will only get smaller as we grow older. It makes me smile when I overhear cops talking about Skyrim or senior provincial prosecutors talking about Bioshock.

[pspiddy]

I can agree with Neph on his statement of-to paraphrase- why the hell does anyone need his validation? Because he can't let go of winning some writing award or something?

I have a family member whose work is taught in Universities in the U.S. and abroad, and has been cited by a poet laureate in the preface of a book as being an example of great poetry. The work that goes into it is pretty intense from my perspective. But nothing Neph has stated has offended me on their behalf. It's just, like, opinion, man.

I mean, aside from being obviously misguided about short films, poetry and baseball, Neph makes some valid points; Miyamoto is pretty much phoning it in at this point. And Limbo sucks. Bastion is indie done correct.

And I don't know if Neph is trying to further a discussion or be a troll or just be a douche-bag, but he has been successful on all accounts. I mean, seriously, Prince has more humility than how you come across in your posts.

[Krubixcube]

I'm not saying you have to like poetry, in fact that's the one thing I told you you COULD do. Fuck's sake, I wish you'd actually read what I wrote sometimes...but you are wrong. I'm sorry, I don't say that a lot but saying that one poem could not be seen as better than another is, well, silly. You can make that argument about anything. You're not technically wrong because i could say the shit I took this morning smells better than flowers, and not technically be wrong either. The thing is, for instance, your defense of poetry isn't valid to me. In order to truly prove a dislike for something you have to at least attempt to understand it. You can't say that poetry is insignificant and silly and not worth the time of day without mentioning the name of a single poet or poem. That doesn't show an enlightened opinion, it shows ignorance.

Your statement about retail games is true. The difference in funding and things is worth noting too, and I think they're fucking up more on an organizational issue than how much money they're spending. We forget loads of games that were blockbusters too, they probably sold enough to break even though. That's how the film industry works, a lot of money is thrown into several projects hoping that maybe one or two of those will be huge successes. The more budget, the more you have producers over your shoulder and telling you what your game should be. But it's not about there being more SKILL in having more resources, not necessarily. How these big companies manage their budgets and how the pricing of games changes in the future is worth talking about for sure.

Your love of the Jimquisition surely does show up in your hatred of publishers, and publishers being everything that's wrong with the industry but...well, they do what makes money. And people fuel that, publishers don't pull money out of their ass, they take it from our hands. We might not agree with what they do. It certainly makes me sad that for someone who loves games so much you're so fatalistic about the future of the industry. Things will change, business models will rise up that we can't predict, technological innovations with change things. So all this talk of, "the publishers are doing this the publishers are doing that". If you want them to stop, stop playing their games. Don't pre-order, be more selective with purchases. If they really are as stupid as you say they will collapse under their own weight in time. We're already seeing Square-Enix collapse on itself and we shouldn't be sad about that, it deserved to. Good games can and will come from anywhere, and that's not going to stop because the current companies are being stupid.

You may not mean to come across as a man who likes pawing at shiny objects, but you do to me. What does "impress" you in a game Neph? Is it the design? The story? Or the audio-visual presentation? I could argue that many well-designed indie games have "flaws" too and one of them is the graphics.

You see this divide Neph, because you've made it in your head. People who play games will have differing degrees of being involved, the same with movies or books, like you yourself pointed out. Isn't the same true for games? Should be put up a dividing bar between them?

Regardless of not responding to my actual points, p-spiddy said it better than me. You come across with about a much grace in the way you bring up points as a bull dancing ballet. When people respond to you you say their responses are silly, or ignore them completely.

I think you are misguided to talk about an industry that frankly, you show little understanding of besides what you've seen on Jimquisition and what you yourself play in your household. If the triple A industry goes down, which you are right, it may, it deserves it. The music and film industry go through similar rises and falls. The rise of a thriving indie market shows consumers who want something different out of their games than these big triple-A games, which you seem to defend so harshly, while writing off most of the indie games that people are enjoying. You then seem to talk about those games like the people enjoying them are idiots because indie games aren't worth the time. yeah, they might not be to you, but there's a HUGE portion of the industry that disagrees with you. And to have a discussion of the industry without acknowledging that there's a big stake of it in that market is a bit silly. I'm not calling you dumb, Neph, you're a very smart guy. But I think the curse of many smart men is that they formulate an opinion so strong their gaze narrows until the outside doesn't get in anymore.

Again, you have every right to not like something. I don't like most fighting games, but I would never turn that dislike into a statement like "fighting games are wastes of talent and time, and people are duped into playing them" because that's not true. My opinion stands alone. You say that you don't say "in my opinion" to piss people off, but you can't just discount the artistic validity of an entire section of literature, games or films without pissing someone off. Your OPINION is that you don't like short films, you don't get poetry, and most indie games aren't really your thing. Ok, we get that Neph.

But we're not all you. And regardless of whether you tried to come across as a bit of a dick, and I think I know you well enough to know that you absolutely did not, you should be able to see how that kind of statement can sting someone.

[Nephilimi]

I'm almost at that point where I've repeated myself so many times Twolf and you're just not understanding that it's not even worth it to continue. I wish you read what I wrote, so I will be very careful to address everything you've said to avoid any confusion. It won’t matter because you still won’t ever give an inch on anything but it’s worth a try.

I'm not saying you have to like poetry, in fact that's the one thing I told you you COULD do. I don't like poetry we've established that, I'm glad you've finally allowed me that small comfort. But the hot button issue is what I’m saying beyond that; I have more respect for a novelist than a poet because of the difficulty involved. But I'm not going nearly that far as to say poetry has no value. But you seem to be flopping between all three. Attacking me for supposedly saying poetry is insignificant, then saying I can’t have an opinion, then saying any opinion can be right. Fuck's sake, I wish you'd actually read what I wrote sometimes...but you are wrong. Again I wish you read what I wrote. You said I couldn't have that opinion because I had no basis for it ("If you can't back up your opinion, it's not a valid opinion"), so I provided you with my basis. “Lack of structure, length, objective rules or objective depth.” I'm sorry, I don't say that a lot but saying that one poem could not be seen as better than another is, well, silly. You can make that argument about anything. You're not technically wrong because i could say the shit I took this morning smells better than flowers, and not technically be wrong either. Everything in the world is subjective. You could say shit smells better than flowers. Read Wittgenstein, nothing exists. But we establish common objective language to judge certain things. We have a common language to judge smells, we have a common language to judge the rationality of an argument. Poetry lacks the structure, length and objective elements to be judged or compared as easily as a novel. That’s the basis for my opinion. The judging of poetry is much more subjective because of its nature, just like the judging of an abstract painting. The thing is, for instance, your defense of poetry isn't valid to me. In order to truly prove a dislike for something you have to at least attempt to understand it. What?! I hate that argument. You can’t judge baseball until you’ve played it. Fine I played in a softball beer league. Well you can’t judge it until you’ve played it competitively. Okay. Nope can’t judge it until you’ve played it professional. Where does this goofy argument end? Obviously the opinion someone holds on any topic is coloured by the strengthen of their experience, but there isn’t some magical bar you have to meet that precludes having an opinion. And what do you know about my experience with poetry. I was forced to study it extensively throughout by extensive formal education. I never learned proper punctuation because since elementary school I was in advanced classes where we studied poetry rather than learn basic English. You can't say that poetry is insignificant and silly and not worth the time of day without mentioning the name of a single poet or poem. That doesn't show an enlightened opinion, it shows ignorance. See above. See above. Never said I was enlightened and “And obviously I can recognize poetry’s importance, suggesting poetry wasn’t or isn’t important would be like suggesting television isn’t important to visual media.”

Your statement about retail games is true. The difference in funding and things is worth noting too, and I think they're fucking up more on an organizational issue than how much money they're spending. We forget loads of games that were blockbusters too, they probably sold enough to break even though. That's how the film industry works, a lot of money is thrown into several projects hoping that maybe one or two of those will be huge successes. The more budget, the more you have producers over your shoulder and telling you what your game should be. But it's not about there being more SKILL in having more resources, not necessarily. I am saying there’s a great skill to it. Managing all these competing interests and still coming out with something interesting and compelling is much more difficult than picking up a camcorder and making whatever you want. Maybe that’s where you’re not understanding me. I’m greatly impressed by this process because it’s so much more difficult. All you seem to be hearing is blah blah blah feature movies are better than short film blah blah blah. That’s not what I’m saying. Maybe you’re not as impressed as me by managing a large project but it’s inconceivable to me that you’re arguing this point. Twolf here’s ten thousand dollars and a camera, make whatever you want. Compared to, Twolf here’s one hundred million and chance to direct Avengers 2, make it work. How these big companies manage their budgets and how the pricing of games changes in the future is worth talking about for sure.

Your love of the Jimquisition surely does show up in your hatred of publishers, and publishers being everything that's wrong with the industry but...well, they do what makes money. I don’t hate publishers. I’m someone who consistently defends publishers. It’s a business and they have to make money. I’m one of the few people supporting the blocking of used games. I’ve repeatedly made the argument that publishers need to make money somehow and they have to be a little ruthless to do it. Look at the worst publishers thread. I’m defending EA! My point was just that the massive casual market dollars have made them poorly estimate how much they can sell. Like if a movie producer said, “Twilight made a ton of money and it wasn’t great. So if we make a really great, meaningful teen story with great actors and a wonderful story it’s sure to sell at least as much.” The movie industry seems to understand that of the billion people going to see Transformers 3, most of them won’t see much else over the summer. It’s like the Drive people setting sales targets to rival The Fast and the Furious then getting super disappointed. And people fuel that, publishers don't pull money out of their ass, they take it from our hands. We might not agree with what they do. It certainly makes me sad that for someone who loves games so much you're so fatalistic about the future of the industry. It makes me sad too. I just want the simple Gamecube and PS2 days back. Everything has gotten so complex. Things will change, business models will rise up that we can't predict, technological innovations with change things. So all this talk of, "the publishers are doing this the publishers are doing that". If you want them to stop, stop playing their games. Don't pre-order, be more selective with purchases. Again I don’t hate publishers or “big industry” video games. But I clearly hate certain publishers and developers and I’m always advocating being a selective consumer. That’s why I will never buy a WiiU. If they really are as stupid as you say they will collapse under their own weight in time. Hence why I’m being fatalistic. They are making a lot of bad decisions and generally treating fans poorly. We're already seeing Square-Enix collapse on itself and we shouldn't be sad about that, it deserved to. Exactly. Good games can and will come from anywhere, and that's not going to stop because the current companies are being stupid. That’s my hope for kickstarter projects.

You may not mean to come across as a man who likes pawing at shiny objects, but you do to me. I don’t know what this means. What does "impress" you in a game Neph? Is it the design? The story? Or the audio-visual presentation? All of the above and more. All of which is harder and more complex in a retail title. I could argue that many well-designed indie games have "flaws" too and one of them is the graphics.

You see this divide Neph, because you've made it in your head. Yes and no. I’m defining a line in the sand in a grey area that objectively already exists between enthusiasts and casuals. But, again repeating myself, it’s a much more distinct divide in games than the older industries like music, books or movies. People who play games will have differing degrees of being involved, the same with movies or books, like you yourself pointed out. Isn't the same true for games? Should be put up a dividing bar between them? It’s helpful for any number of discussions, like the one about how to set targets for game sales. Or the watering down of games to try and grab a different audience.

Regardless of not responding to my actual points, p-spiddy said it better than me. You come across with about a much grace in the way you bring up points as a bull dancing ballet. I don’t care. Come meet me in real life, I’m opinionated and blunt. I’m here to have a discussion on controversial gaming topics (instead it degraded into the worth of poetry and offending internet poets). We are talking about video games for fucks sake, the most unimportant topic in my life. It’s cathartic to argue about human rights all day then come home and have a foolish debate about Miyamoto. That’s also why I wanted to limit some of my more offensive ideas to this thread so that I’m not trolling other threads with my ideas. All the bleeding heart “everyone’s entitled to an opinion” folks can just avoid it. When people respond to you you say their responses are silly, or ignore them completely. You're the one saying my opinion is just plain wrong, while I'm trying to address your cluster of arguments. I just wrote two freaking pages responding to you! Who am I writing off as silly? TheMatt for saying “Keep trolling”. Or whoever it was that said “What. The. Fuck.” Or p-spiddy for being an asshole as usual.

I think you are misguided to talk about an industry that frankly, you show little understanding of besides what you've seen on Jimquisition and what you yourself play in your household. This is ridiculous for the same reasons I stated earlier about poetry. I’m a couch quarterback of the video game industry. I read up a ton on gaming news, watch a bunch of different bloggers and play a ton of games. I forgot how you were the CEO of Valve a couple years back, I guess I should back off because I don’t have as much understanding as you do. That’s just an altogether foolish and hateful statement. If the triple A industry goes down, which you are right, it may, it deserves it. The music and film industry go through similar rises and falls. Yup. The rise of a thriving indie market shows consumers who want something different out of their games than these big triple-A games Yup, which you seem to defend so harshly, while writing off most of the indie games that people are enjoying. Once again, initially writing them out of the discussion about artistic direction for obvious reasons. The saying how I’m more impressed by larger games, again for reasons discussed. And then writing off Journey, again for reasons discussed. You then seem to talk about those games like the people enjoying them are idiots because indie games aren't worth the time. Never said that, again why don’t you freaking read. The most frustrating part of having discussion with you is how you just jump entire arguments to continue to belabour the same point. “I’m not completely discounting indie games. There’s plenty of awesome indie game and indie games I’ve thoroughly enjoyed. And I’m really not discounting games based on their budget or graphics. I’m just saying, it is harder to make a great or even a mediocre retail game.” yeah, they might not be to you, but there's a HUGE portion of the industry that disagrees with you. And to have a discussion of the industry without acknowledging that there's a big stake of it in that market is a bit silly. I'm not calling you dumb, Neph, you're a very smart guy. But I think the curse of many smart men is that they formulate an opinion so strong their gaze narrows until the outside doesn't get in anymore. Ditto.

Again, you have every right to not like something. Apparently I don’t. You've made that point numerous times. I don't like most fighting games, but I would never turn that dislike into a statement like "fighting games are wastes of talent and time, and people are duped into playing them" because that's not true. But you could say something like, “fighting games shouldn’t be considered in a discussion about story integration because they tend not to have much story”, without having some goofus jump down your throat about how awesome fighting games are and how dare you belittle fighting games. My opinion stands alone. You say that you don't say "in my opinion" to piss people off, but you can't just discount the artistic validity of an entire section of literature, games or films without pissing someone off. Read. Read. Read. Read. Read. Read. “To be quite frank, I’m not saying “in my opinion” to avoid hurting people’s feelings, I’m just acknowledging it’s a very personal and subjective preference and I’m not really pushing the point beyond that. Some discussions have a much stronger objective element to them. My intention isn’t to try and specifically target or belittle anyone, but at the same time I don’t really care if you find my opinion on poetry offensive. A strong opinion presumes offending people that don’t share it. My dismissal of baseball is going to offend and enrage people that spent their lives playing and training for baseball. That’s fine. They shouldn’t need my validation. There’s no reason why I should be forced to pretend to like something or respect the effort put into something I don’t respect. I’m not trying to sleep with any poets or baseball players.” Your OPINION is that you don't like short films, I actually like short films. you don't get poetry, yup and most indie games aren't really your thing yup. Ok, we get that Neph. No you didn’t, as evidenced by everything you’ve said earlier.

But we're not all you. And regardless of whether you tried to come across as a bit of a dick, and I think I know you well enough to know that you absolutely did not, you should be able to see how that kind of statement can sting someone. See above. At least I acknowledge that I can come off as being a pretentious, stubborn, dick.

[pspiddy]

There's a fine line between being blunt and opinionated and just being a jackass.

[Krubixcube]

I feel I have to respond to you after...that. But dude, you're just being an asshole. You say that I'm not reading your points, I'm not addressing anything you've said. I am. I'm not agreeing with you, which is maybe why you're getting the impression I haven't read what you wrote. But I did.

And honestly man, with the way you're being, Neph, I don't feel like continuing it. I'm done. There's no having a discussion with you when someone's not agreeing with you.

[volvocrusher]

[Miraculous Kaydybug]

There is no more difficulty in writing novels than there is poetry. I've worked on both they both take a lot of effort, but of course you know every poet only ever writes one poem per every novel an author puts out. They don't have things like collections or anything of course.

That's all i have left to say here, I'm out as well.

[chocobot]

I think everyone now agrees the walls of text in this thread are going nowhere at this point.

[Miraculous Kaydybug]

i could put up a wall of text for you that will go somewhere

[Methane_Max]

Just popping in to say that Chocobot wins the argument.

I need to stop disappearing so much, I miss all the fun when I do.

[Miraculous Kaydybug]

She's the most beautiful person on this forum. She wins every argument

[volvocrusher]

False, that is Hagen

[Miraculous Kaydybug]

[chocobot]

We should have a beauty contest. It will be fabulous.

[Miraculous Kaydybug]

What should we wear? ^_^

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