How To Make Trophies Better Next Gen

by Krubixcube Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:34 am

Obviously some of us don't love trophies/achievements (me) and some love them with an almost insane passion (Neph), but regardless of one's thoughts on the subject I'm sure we all agree there's room for improvement. What changes would you like to see implemented to the trophies of the next gen? Do you think they'll be made?

For me:

1. No more intrusive "dings" and trophy pop ups during cutscenes. I saw recently a game that waited until a cutscene was over and gameplay had resumed to give the trophy for the story bits...good stuff. But also...

2. Stop giving trophies for playing the game. A trophy for beating the game...ok. A trophy for getting the good/bad ending...ok. But "YOU FINISHED CHAPTER TWO! YAY!" There's no achievement there, we didn't achieve anything other than play the game.

3. More challenge based trophies. I'd like to see stuff like Deus Ex's no-kill achievement done in small bursts, like for each major area. That way you could segment off the challenge (got a no-kill run in Hong Kong but not in Singapore etc, yay!) etc. In general, more trophies that challenge the player to do things in a tricky way as opposed to "shoot 100 people with gun x" (rinse, repeat).

4. An overhaul of the way trophies show up in game in general and more importantly an OPTIONS menu for them. Why not create a simple menu in the system that says "Achievements: on/off. Achievement pop ups on/off. Achievement sound on/off. I think a lot of people would appreciate the feature.

Anyway, that's my take on it. Discuss.

by BretBaber Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:59 am

Here's what I want, and it might be ridiculous but I don't care.

When you platinum a game, you can contact the developer and purchase an actual platinum trophy. They send it to you in the mail, and you can proudly display it in your home. Getting an actual trophy would just be the coolest thing ever. Also, it's a way to get developers a little extra money.

by Bannen Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:12 pm

I enjoy the little pop-up and the Ding! of earning a trophy or achievement...

Also, I like easy ones, like ones you earn for doing what should be done anyway, like finishing a level or a boss. It's a balance of little easy ones and big tough ones. I'd be pissed if all of them were back-breaking to earn.

Also, I think we can all agree on no more multiplayer trophies. So many games with half-assed online modes where I'll never get all the stuff for them...

by TripOpt55 Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:51 pm

I'll have to think on this more, but here are some. I don't think ones for completing portions of the story are so bad though. I think you are underestimating how often people don't finish games. Getting some for a bit of progress is okay.

I'd rather not have multiplayer trophies unless it is try each mode or something like that. Nothing that makes people act stupid when playing online.

I wouldn't mind any story based ones being secret, so I can browse the list without seeing something sort of spoilery, but I am very spoiler phobic. That or just say chapter 1 beat or whatever.

I do like special ones like you mentioned Krubix that make you do something outside the box. Stealth a certain section and so on.

by volvocrusher Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:12 pm

I get where you're coming from on the pop up trophies T-Wolf, but I wouldn't say remove them, just make it optional. I personally like seeing an achievement pop up while playing, especially since they're usually placed before or after cutscenes smartly. Like in Mass Effect 2 seeing an achievement pop up after finishing a mission made it so much more satisfying. Thane's loyalty was especially great because it was called "Cat's in the Cradle."

by ajapam Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:03 am

Leave them out of the picture until you beat the game the first time. I don't like the temptation of playing the game a strange way just to get trophies when I haven't beaten it yet. Then when you beat the game it can just show the trophies you have and haven't earned, which will then be saved for viewing later

by SanAndreasX Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:36 am

No more trophies that require you to repeat boring actions/parts of the game 100 times.

No more all-or-nothing trophies that you have to restart the game from the beginning to get if you miss them during the 3 seconds they were available.

No more MP trophies unless they're treated separately from the ones that count towards a Platinum.

by Captain N Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:19 am

Neph is going to freak if he sees this, unless he has lol

I kinda like trophies/achievements, they give you a goal to work towards and a good excuse to play a game you liked again. I would love it if the trophies/achievements gave you something more for getting them. Like a reward or something, could in-game or something in real life. I know some games do this, but give me a reason to go after virtual trinkets.

I do like how Activision rewarded you with patches/medals back then for doing something awesome in their Atari games. Maybe do something like that.

by Miraculous Kaydybug Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:42 pm

SanAndreasX wrote:No more trophies that require you to repeat boring actions/parts of the game 100 times.

No more all-or-nothing trophies that you have to restart the game from the beginning to get if you miss them during the 3 seconds they were available.

No more MP trophies unless they're treated separately from the ones that count towards a Platinum.

This so much and its applicable now to me consider how much I love the new Tomb Raider and how tacked-on it's MP is. Seriously if it only had SP trophies I'd plat it but as it stands I doubt i'd ever reach level 60 in the MP it just seems like a waste of time especially when the SP is so amazing and you'd rather be playing that.

Also i like what Mass Effect does it gives little bonuses (extra xp, resources, etc) for completing achievements MORE games need to do this

by Bannen Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:50 pm

That's why I hate MP trophies - especially when they're included in games with what you KNOW is half-assed multiplayer.

Call of Duty? Halo? These are game with some sharp, polished, and long-living online communities. The Darkness? Bioshock 2? Ghostbusters? You know right away that these are not where people will invest their times online...

by SanAndreasX Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:44 pm

Bannen wrote:That's why I hate MP trophies - especially when they're included in games with what you KNOW is half-assed multiplayer.

Call of Duty? Halo? These are game with some sharp, polished, and long-living online communities. The Darkness? Bioshock 2? Ghostbusters? You know right away that these are not where people will invest their times online...

The only game franchises which could get away with this are Call of Duty, Halo, and Street Fighter. Everyone else just needs to get over it and accept their game isn't likely to be the next online shooter craze. I'm glad Irrational Games nixed Bioshock Infinite multiplayer. Waste of time and resources that could be better spent making the core game better.

by TheMatt Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:57 pm

I'm fine with what games like Uncharted do with multiplayer trophies. They patch them in later with DLC map packs... so if you are into a game's multiplayer enough to play some DLC... you have a whole new trophy list to go after. I know that messes up overall completion percentages... but besides Neph, who really cares about that?

by Bannen Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:00 pm

I have to believe that the developers (and more likely, the publishers) know that these multiplayer portions aren't going to have staying power - they're just something the companies hope postpones a trade-in as long as possible.

Also, the magical lure of a Season Pass fals into this. "Oh my god! For only $14.99 more, I can get the next three map packs for Bioshock's multiplayer!"... Really?

by Bannen Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:01 pm

TheMatt wrote:I'm fine with what games like Uncharted do with multiplayer trophies. They patch them in later with DLC map packs... so if you are into a game's multiplayer enough to play some DLC... you have a whole new trophy list to go after. I know that messes up overall completion percentages... but besides Neph, who really cares about that?

Sadly, this doesn't apply on the 360. I've had three completed games taken away from me retroactively because DLC added Achievements I hadn't earned yet. I had Fallout 3 100%...then the DLC came out and screwed it all up. I still haven't gotten around to fixing that mess...

by SanAndreasX Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:03 pm

Bannen wrote:I have to believe that the developers (and more likely, the publishers) know that these multiplayer portions aren't going to have staying power - they're just something the companies hope postpones a trade-in as long as possible.

Also, the magical lure of a Season Pass fals into this. "Oh my god! For only $14.99 more, I can get the next three map packs for Bioshock's multiplayer!"... Really?

If I really love a game, it's never going to get traded in. If I don't like a game, no amount of tacked-on MP is going to forestall a trade-in. And I think that's the way most gamers are. For everything other than the established MP giants as well as inherently MP genres like fighting, the community is dead within a week.

As I always say, if you don't want your game to get flipped into the used-games bin, make it worth keeping. The publishers themselves treat the games like disposable Bic lighters.

by Bannen Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:08 pm

I always feel terrible when a game comes out, and I really like it, and a week later, I read about how the studio lost 3/4 of its staff - or was shuttered completed.

It's been happening a lot more lately.

by SanAndreasX Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:24 pm

Bannen wrote:I always feel terrible when a game comes out, and I really like it, and a week later, I read about how the studio lost 3/4 of its staff - or was shuttered completed.

It's been happening a lot more lately.

True enough. I buy my games new myself when I can, i.e. when the game is still in print. I don't dun anyone who buys used, although I will admit I'd raise my eyebrows as the folks who will buy someone else's sloppy seconds for $54.99 a lot more than I would at someone who's buying a used copy of a $60 game for $30 or $40. But hey, if that's what they want. Game companies don't make that any easier since all the skimping they've done on packaging makes the difference between a used and a new title less and less.

A lot of the reason for the studios getting shuttered is the larger failings of the industry as a whole, for which boogeymen like pirates and secondhand games are largely scapegoats. EA, for instance, was pretty irresponsible in setting a bar of 5 million copies for Dead Space 3. There was no way in hell DS3 was going to sell 5 million copies. But of course it's the front-line programmers at Visceral Games who will be wondering if they'll show up at the office only to find the doors locked and not the EA producers that set such a ridiculous goal.

by Bannen Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:35 pm

I don't have anything against buying used - and you're right, I never understood who would buy a used game for $54.99 and not the new for $59.99. Makes no sense at that rate. But if I can get a good game at half the price or even lower, then hell yeah I'm buying used.

As for the benchmark numbers, I don't even know how they generate those sometimes. 5 Million for Dead Space 3. Now, I love me some Dead Space, and DS3 was a no-brainer - but you look at the year-to-date sales for Dead Space 2. As of right now, it's sold (globally and across all platforms) 2.84 million copies. How did they expect the third game to sell twice as much?

by SanAndreasX Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:06 pm

Bannen wrote:I don't have anything against buying used - and you're right, I never understood who would buy a used game for $54.99 and not the new for $59.99. Makes no sense at that rate. But if I can get a good game at half the price or even lower, then hell yeah I'm buying used.

As for the benchmark numbers, I don't even know how they generate those sometimes. 5 Million for Dead Space 3. Now, I love me some Dead Space, and DS3 was a no-brainer - but you look at the year-to-date sales for Dead Space 2. As of right now, it's sold (globally and across all platforms) 2.84 million copies. How did they expect the third game to sell twice as much?

Seems their idea was to up the dudebro shooter quotient and make DS3 more like Gears of War, and you'd get Gears of War sales. As it is, 2.84 million sales for DS2 is a damned good milestone that 99% of all video games are likely never to see. I imagine that Gearsing it up, they thought they'd build that userbase another 2.16 million. It's the same thing when Farmville and Angry Birds came up with hundreds of millions of downloads and the entire industry decided FTP/social was the wave of the future. Again, companies jumped on that bandwagon convinced they'd be the next game to score a billion downloads, they lost their shirts in that gambit, and a lot of old-school game companies, including EA and Square Enix, have announced this year that they're refocusing on the "core gamer" again since their attempts to join the casual cashgrab failed.

by SanAndreasX Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:07 pm

Oops. I think I just completely derailed this thread. My bad!

by Miraculous Kaydybug Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:04 pm

So wait let me get this straight. EA is canceling the Dead Space series cause DS3 didn't sell 5 million copies while DS2 didn't even sell 3 million? Did the execs at EA even go to business school or even know anything about business at all? Cause it sounds like they clearly don't.

by Captain N Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:24 pm

Well it's EA, what do you expect from them at this point that isn't stupid?

by Captain N Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:28 pm

I have no problem with mp in games as long as it was planned from the start, it's polished and not broken, and it makes sense for the game. Not something that they tacked on just for the sake of putting in mp because every other game has it.

Developers need to take a good look at the game and see if it needs MP or not because sometimes it seems like they add it just for the sake of having it. Not saying to remove that portion entirely, but make sure it makes sense within the context of the game.

by volvocrusher Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:04 pm

There's nothing wrong with derailing a thread to EA bashing

by Bannen Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:19 pm

SanAndreasX wrote:Oops. I think I just completely derailed this thread. My bad!

Sorry, man. We just really started to get into some good stuff here.

It's funny. Dead Space 3 added a few things, like the crouching, and shooting human enemies - but I still play it like I do Dead Space 2. I pretty much forget to ever crouch, and I treat the humans just like they're Necromorphs with guns...which actually show up later in the game, so it's a sound tactic.

It's still nowhere near Gears of War, and I actually dig the co-op mode. Also, the new roll move is a god-send.

Regarding Dead Space getting the axe, as I understand it, that story was false, and EA's pissed about it. Whether it's true or not, I do find it hilarious that Dead Space 4 could get cancelled because it didn't reach a ridiculous number like 5 million, and yet Dead Space's developer - Visceral - is making a new Army of Two game. How big an audience does Army of Two have? I'm willing to bet it's smaller than Dead Space.

I don't hate EA. They make some good games, and shit like micro-transactions are completely optional, so whatever. There's other industry-wide stuff to be concerned about. I, for one, kind of hate the Activation Codes so many games have to play online or co-op or whatever. Fuck that noise.

by BretBaber Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:06 am

Another thing I'd like to see happen that never will is rewarding the players. What's the point of having a certain number of trophies and percentage if it gives you nothing? Go up to another level, and they should give you some money to spend in the store. I bet it would get people to go for more trophies, and would help sell games a bit more too.

by SanAndreasX Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:06 am

BretBaber wrote:Another thing I'd like to see happen that never will is rewarding the players. What's the point of having a certain number of trophies and percentage if it gives you nothing? Go up to another level, and they should give you some money to spend in the store. I bet it would get people to go for more trophies, and would help sell games a bit more too.

That'll never happen. People'd be borrowing Avatar: The Last Airbender right and left to score free games from XBLA. These companies are never going to go for that.

by Miraculous Kaydybug Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:21 am

Stuff like free icons and themes would be nice though. Actually some games do do that. Not very many though.

by Captain N Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:34 am

Kayshire Cat wrote:Stuff like free icons and themes would be nice though. Actually some games do do that. Not very many though.

I would settle for that atleast.

by volvocrusher Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:38 am

Or maybe give us more costumes and things now being charged as DLC that we used to get for free for getting trophies. I get a lot of DLC, but anything as small as costumes is bullshit.

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How To Make Trophies Better Next Gen

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