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This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Krubixcube on Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:40 pm

Yeah, you know, I hadn't noticed that when I played that segment (I thought the crowd had just dispersed) but I think you're right they did just kind of take off. It's kind of like editing tricks in film cutting out the sound of a restaurant and stuff but it doesn't quite work in games since you're free to look around.

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by volvocrusher on Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:37 pm

Yeah, I mean, I can get them trying to get away, but that's the thing about a panicked crowd: They're not rational. I'd love to see them just running around when I was in a firefight with the cops. You have to decide whether to be careful or just take out everyone and maybe some cops early on would try to protect them while later on they're trying to kill you at any cost.
Almost wish I bought it so I could keep talking, but I can talk about this game later I guess.

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Nephilimi on Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:45 am

Well the game gets much, much, much better in terms of story. You just have to slog through five hours of crap. Murdering racist bumpkins and war vets for absolutely no reason and without any context for a few hours to get to the good stuff. Fuck they should have cut three quarters of the first half of the game.

The gameplay itself is solid and fun (with the exception of those mother fucking fuck face fuck fuck Handymen, what the fuck is with them). It's the story that was/is bugging me. All day I was pissed off about it and I was going to skip playing it tonight just to cool down.

This is the same way I felt about the third Batman movie. Second Batman movie was perfect, fun, action movie with this incredible plot and a really meaningful philosophical discussion. Third Batman movie was just a big waste of a movie. All this potential to tell a great story squandered on nonsense.

Bioshock 1 was this incredible gaming experience with this engaging philosophical theme and a super fun game on top of all that. Infinite is just this hamfisted sloppy story telling about 1800s super racism. Levine has the green light to make a game about whatever he wants and he squanders it on making what can at best be called a hard look at 1800s America. Whatever Twolf, you think there's more going on than just racism, I disagree. Certainly there's religion and worship of the Prophet but it's secondary or complimentary to this racist society.

More religious, more racist. Whatever we're splitting hairs. My problem is that everything is just so blunt. The story has no deeper meaning, there's no opportunity for self reflection, no subtle themes. Again, at best the only thing happening is a hard look at late 1800s American.

Bioshock 1 was all about imagining a society without ethics or law. Libertarian paradise. Then apply that to different facets of society. Obsession with self imagine taken to the extreme. Obsession with art. With technology. How is a workforce mobilized in this kind of lawless society. It's just so interesting. Infinite is "Look at what the States used to be like!! These people are super racist!!" Over and over and over again. Okay move on. 4 hours into Bioshock you'd been introduced to the three factions, visited at least 4 unique areas with unique themes and philosophical questions. 4 hours into Infinite you've done nothing but get beat over the head with the same thing. What am I supposed to take from the game and think about? Wow the states were really fucked up, ultra racism is bad.

Fours hours in you're introduced to someone, but he's just utter nonsense. At least it's a new character with a slightly different motivation, even if that motivation makes no sense. After you pass that garbage, maybe 6 hours in then the story finally starts going and there's an interesting character introduced and a little bit of a neat look at society and some awesome twists.

I have to admit I was interested in the couple (and certainly now I'm very very interested in them) but there was nothing else in terms of "mysteries" that initially pulled me in. Yes, Elizabeth has these powers but I was sure it would all be explained and I thought I knew where it was going. Now I actually have some real questions and interest in her powers and her relationship to the world. There was nothing in terms of intrigue that initially pulled me in, again aside from maybe the couple.


Last edited by Nephilimi on Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:05 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Nephilimi on Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:58 am

Greenman touched on exactly what I'm getting at about the jarring shifts. It happens repeatedly throughout the game. The environment is beautiful and engaging. There's people talking and kids playing. I enjoy just walking around and exploring. Then someone rings the school bell and in an instant everyone disappears, a fog rolls in and the place looks trashed. It makes no sense. It's terrible. And it happens so much in the game. Ive never seen a game bungle those transitions so badly.

I'm still pissed off they hired a Nolan North clone. All the generic, just like every other character voice talents of North but for half the cost!

As far as the killing police thing, it does bug me in a lot of other games. I'm just super sensitive about that stuff. I get really into a game and I don't like being forced to make decisions or hurt people. It's certainly not unique to Bioshock Infinite. Infinite is just a bad example of a game that forces me to kill people that I don't feel comfortable kiling. I do feel that the police are neutral in this game, actually slightly less neutral than Deus Ex (a game where I avoided killing them at all costs too) but that's because Deus Ex gave me some context for what was happening and some choice. Cops just didn't start pouring out of the Detroit police station trying to shoot me for no reason.

But again, the game certainly redeemed itself tonight. At least I'm interested in the story now and the only character in the game (Elizabeth) is showing some depth and growth. Beh maybe Booker is a bit of a real character too.

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Krubixcube on Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:42 am

PS, I will respond but I'm waiting to beat the game before I read anything further on this thread...

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Nephilimi on Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:38 am

I think it's pretty spoiler free but we were both taking a media blackout approach to Infinite so I wouldn't want to read anything until I had played it through as well.

I'm completely into the game. I was up until 3 am (have to be up at 6 with the kids) hooked on the game. Now we have to go to the lake for a couple days for Easter.

The game has redeemed itself a lot from my initial disappointment. I was pretty mad that first night. Had I just waited to post any thoughts about the game I would still have a good deal of complaints but my thoughts wouldn't be nearly so negative.

Right now my biggest problem is the boss fights. I don't know if I'm missing something but they are completely impossible. I have no clue what I'm going to do on 1888 difficulty.

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Krubixcube on Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:12 am

I will address THAT point now, which is...I'm playing on Hard because I didn't hear much but I heard the game was really easy. So I said..."yeah alright" but the boss fights. Fucking hell. THEY OWN ME.

I will say this though, I will STILL defend all the points I brought up before. And I still don't agree with your assessment of the first 5 hours, because I don't think the elements in game support your argument.

THAT SAID, I can already say before finishing that Bioshock Infinite isn't as strong of a game as Bioshock 1. But it's weird, because I don't know how you feel about this Neph, but they're almost so different that they aren't worth making a direct comparison. I quite like that personally, it feels like the hayday of Silent Hill in that they'd take the "Silent Hill" concept and then just apply it in a completely different way.

Bioshock a lot like Final Fantasy in that regard as well, similar in themes and certain elements but different games really.

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Krubixcube on Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:47 am

Holy fucking shit that shit blew my mind...damn. DAMN!

Before we shout at each other over game mechanics and parts of the plot we disagree on can we (hopefully) agree that ending was bitching? And if we DO agree on that oh the MULTITUDE of things we'd have to talk about.

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Nephilimi on Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:22 am

Wow wow wow. What an ending. I'm all screwed up trying to wrap my head around it. The gameplay was really frustrating me to the point where I was thinking I was going to take a break before I jumped right into 1999 difficulty but wow, after that ending I want to jump right in. There's just so much to think about and I need someone to chat with about it.

So many "twists" have become so cliche in video games. Like your character having an imaginary friend. So I made that asshole comment earlier about being able to predict the ending because of how down I was on the game. Starting off with a quote about how transportation creates false memories and then a boat ride with two mysterious people that are trying you like you don't exist... I was like, "what the fuck" why would you be so obvious about setting up a twist right at the beginning. Well it turns out I couldn't have been more wrong. There's so few movies, let alone games, that have fucked with me that much with an ending. Absolutely outstanding.

I guess we can start fighting it out about the game but you're right about it being different than Bioshock. Playing that last level after you get separated from Elizabeth on the bridge... that felt like Bioshock 1 and it made me realize just how different the tones of the games are. Certainly there are plenty of similarities and I think there's enough there to compare the two. But there's just so different.

Bioshock 1 you're a faceless character going through this incredible world. It has a lot to say philosophically and is a much deeper game. Infinite on the other hand is a very different type of game. It's a character driven story that focus more on the intrigue and mystery of the plot. What I get out the games is very different. So I can appreciate now that Columbia is much more shallow. Columbia is still a beautiful world but it's just a backdrop for this crazy story. Bioshock 1 IS rapture. There's really no story beyond rapture itself.

Overall though I still prefer Bioshock. If nothing else the gameplay is 10 times better. But I'm still sorting out my thoughts.


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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Krubixcube on Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:43 am

I don't know...I'm torn. Because on the one hand Bioshock 1, like you said, feels more complete. There's a whole eco-system of enemy types, the theme is very straightforward.

Infinite on the other hand MOVED me much more than Bioshock did. which is a heard thing to qualify. The ending is brilliant not only because it's a wonderful geeky thing but it reframes EVERYTHING you've seen.

Spoiler:
Knowing that Booker is in fact Comstock having taken a slightly different path makes it hard to just say "ah well, that's just a madman doing stuff" because your avatar is that madman. Two sides of the same coin, and kind of says that level of american fanaticism is very close to the surface. Booker was a monster, and by washing himself of his sins he just continued being a monster, whereas rejecting it he had to try and come to terms with himself. It's a wonderful twist, one that was hinted at so well but I genuinely didn't see coming at all. But when it happened it was no Mass Effect 3 "well...that came out of fucking nowhere" all the little bits just worked. Comstock being infertile, lady comstock going mad convinced the children weren't hers, the heads or tails game in the beginning (my favorite little detail that I can remember)...everything just works so nicely.

But beyond being sci fi geekery it really nails in the themes that I liked so much in the beginning. It feels very complete.


That said...quickly, the things that annoyed me:

- I didn't like that the only upgrade system was money, it felt underbaked.

- I wish there were more timed decisions to make...they just kind of go away later on in the game which is annoying.

-A lot of the NPCs just don't feel as RICH as Elizabeth or Booker or Comstock, which creates a bit of a disconnect. I still got absorbed in the city, but...whatdya gonna do I guess.

-I wish Elizabeth's tears featured more in teh gameplay than spawning a few guns.

- Enemy types, compared to Bioshock...not nearly as inventive. Some were better than others but overall...nah.


Again, it's a weird one and it's probably a good sign that I can COMPLETELY see why someone would prefer Bioshock 1 to Infinite but they both do things in their games SO well that the other game doesn't do. Bioshock Infinite moved me emotionally whereas Bioshock got me thinking.

Overall...fuck yeah.

Also Neph:

Spoiler:
The link with Rapture...BLEW MY GOD DAMN MIND. There are implications there...

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Nephilimi on Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:43 am

How do you make thos Spoiler things? We should just have a chat on Skype one night if you're on. I'm still processing things but I loved what you had to say about the ending.

But just focusing on the gameplay. I absolutely loved taking down Big Daddies. There was so much strategy and planning that went into these epic fights. You would scope out a level, plan the perfect ambush, load up on weapons and abilities. But sometimes shit would just hit the fan and you would hit a Big Daddy with a stray bullet or you would see an opportunity as a bunch of splicers were fighting one. It was these incredible random gameplay moments that you could tell stories about. The kind of moments that great games like Far Cry 3 produce.

That was entirely absent from Infinite. Even Bioshock 2 (as mediocre as it was) had those moments. Infinite is just a hectic, sloppy shooter. The two gun system is so fucking frustrating and the boss fights were brutal. I literally killed that ghost by running out, meleeing her until I died, respawning and running out again. I must have done that twenty times. You were just out of ammo and there was nothing else to do. I killed three of the five handymen by just dying so much that the game apparently glitched and the handyman just disappeared. And the fact that guys are flying in from all over the place just makes for there crazy clusterfucks. The game is just so frustrating from a gameplay point.

Also I always point to Bioshock 1 as a great example of meaningful choice. True interactive gameplay where your decisions aren't arbitrary, they actually effect your gameplay. Too many games have choice that is basically just "choose to watch cutscene one or cutscene two". That's no different than scrolling through youtube videos. But when choices make gameplay harder or easier and that conflicts with your ethics... well that's awesome.

Again Infinite had none of that. It would have been easy to attach a cost to Elizabeth's tear powers or something. And I agree about the money system. I was super disappointed by that.

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Krubixcube on Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:44 am

Yeah, I found a balance (funnily as soon as I switched to regular difficulty) of just making sure I kept moving and doing these little strafing runs. But yes, on a gameplay level that ecosystem of enemies was missing and I wont defend that because I missed it too.

I don't think Infinite was a TERRIBLE shooter or anything...also, moving the field of view out by one click SIGNIFICANTLY improved hte aiming for me. Fun fact. But yeah...I feel ya. Makes me want to replay Bioshock 1...and I DID get it for free on my PC with the preorder so...maybe I will.

But yeah, it's weird because there's a lot of things that are half baked in Infinite and a lot of things I can't defend but it still left a much stronger impression on me than Bioshock did. But that really is personal preference.

EDIT: Whoops! And Neph: Spoiler tags [ spoiler ] [ / spoiler ] without the spaces.

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Krubixcube on Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:24 am

Also, do I have you on Skype already Neph? If not...yeah, let's discuss. My girlfriend hasn't played through it yet so I'm lacking in people to talk to.

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Nephilimi on Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:41 am

Yes I have you on Skype and my laptop is beside me pretty much all the time while I'm playing games.

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Krubixcube on Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:08 pm

Posted up an article but decided to make a new thread...

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Krubixcube on Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:42 pm

Oh yeah, did you not find it interesting how Elizabeth's color scheme (later in the game) almost matches the little sisters identically and how Songbird resembles a Big Daddy?

Coincidence? Probably. But interesting.

Not to mention
Spoiler:
Fink says he created the Sonbird after witnessing the fusion of a man and machine through a tear. We know Rapture was an alternate dimension in this case so maybe he based it off a Big Daddy?

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Krubixcube on Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:20 am

Also this cracked article (of all things) brings up some pretty cool possibilities I hadn't thought of:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-awesome-flaws-in-new-bioshock-game_p2/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=fanpage&utm_campaign=new+article&wa_ibsrc=fanpage%2F

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Nephilimi on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:41 pm

That one video they linked in the article is so fucking stupid it made my eyes hurt. Otherwise the article is pretty cool. Covers a lot of things we talked about.

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Krubixcube on Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:01 am

It's not THAT stupid though...the point that

Spoiler:
That Booker would become COMPLETELY different after being baptized and that Luttece, a non-American would size with an ultra-nationalist...it doesn't BREAK the game but there's a bit of a plot hole. But like any minor plot hole you CAN argue it the other way.

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Nephilimi on Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:55 pm

That's not even close to a plot hole.

A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

Spoiler:
Are you actually saying that the adoption of religion changing someone's personality is so improbable that it would be considered a plot hole? It's not even unlikely, it's completely reasonable. Even if it were a bit of a stretch, it's also the main focus of the plot. It's what the game is trying to talk about. And as we discussed at length, it didn't really change his personality. That's the coolest part of the story. He's a violent driven man given a violent and religious purpose.

The guy's point is utter nonsense. And quibbling about the name he choose is just ridiculous. The whole thing is so absurd it made me frustrated. At one point he says that if Wounded Knee fractured Booker and was the reason for his baptism, then why would Comstock celebrate the battle later. That's so fucking stupid I don't know where to begin! He's ashamed of the things that happened at Wounded Knee. So Booker thinks he's a bad person and nothing will change that and continues to be a bad person working for the Pinkertons etc. Comstock find religion and then turns all the faults into strengths, he adopts an ends justifies the means approach that colours all of Columbia. So not only is that NOT A FUCKING PLOT HOLE, it's actually one of the most meaningful comparisons establishing their character.

I have to admit that Luttece's motivations are a mystery. Again, it's not a plot hole that she uses Comstock. It's more just a general lack of information. It's not contradictory to anything established about her in the game. She's an ends justifies the means person as well. We don't have enough to even judge her decision. I could pull potential explanations out of my ass but it's all speculation.

Overall it's a really solid plot and story. You know I love picking apart every little plot hole or inconsistency. The one part that doesn't entirely make sense to me is just the timing of evens. Luttece uses Columbia to make her machine. The machine then ages Comstock. But Comstock is instrumental in the establishment of Columbia. I can't really sort that out, it's circular. Comstock would have had to have been very very Bookerish during all of the events leading up to the independence of Columbia. Wouldn't someone have wondered how he aged so quickly or recognized him? Like Slate.

I'm going slow and enjoying my 1999 second playthrough a lot. It's not that tough so far. I'm about 3/4 done and I've only died once. Fucking handymen... at least it only took one death to glitch him into disappearing.

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by SanAndreasX on Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:40 pm

I just bought Bioshock Infinite an hour ago. I didn't buy it at launch because I needed to save money to help cover my trip to see Nobuo Uematsu. My Gamestop had Premium Editions (the regular Premium Edition, not the ultra-pricey mega hyper super ultra deluxe edition that had the plastic statue I didn't really want anyway), so I got one of those. Getting ready to fire it up now.

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Krubixcube on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:24 pm

Spoiler:
Well yeah, the point about the name is stupid but it is not stupid to say that religion wouldn't necessarily facilitate such a large change that he would found a flying city. That's all I took from it. Allow me to rephrase though, it's not a PLOT hole but it can be a bit of a stretch. It doesn't bug me in the slightest, but it's not an invalid argument. It's obviously an exaggeration of the idea of religious indoctrination, and in that capacity, yeah it works in the story.

I think the thing that doesn't work (if you're being nitpicky) is the fact that he successfully lobbies the US Congress to construct a floating city ONE YEAR after he makes his conversion. It doesn't give him time to get indoctrinated, doesn't give him time to even gain influence. So that may not be a plot hole but it is a bit far fetched. Again, didn't bug me, but it is something they could have done differently.

You can still hear the valid points of an argument without accepting it wholesale, Neph...I swear, sometimes I just try to have a discussion with you and you just firebomb it before it starts.

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Nephilimi on Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:41 am

But there are no valid points in that dude's video. He is a pretentious goof picking apart a great story for the stupidest of reasons and my reactions was over the top anger because it was such nonsense. Personally I don't think the story is an exaggeration at all.

But as per my earlier point, talking about a tough issues can't be seen as a fault or criticism of a story. For example, if a show was trying to say that everyone who is abused as a child ends up a psychopath and childhood abuse is the only way to psychopathy. Well that's a very untrue statement and I would disagree. But if that was the entire central theme of the show and the stance it was taking, I couldn't turn around and criticize it as a plot hole like this goof was doing.

The game was trying to say that x could cause y. You might not agree. Did the game do enough to convince you? That's an intelligent discussion. Rather than the game trying to say x could cause y, you disagreeing and calling it a plot hole.

Whatever I actually don't know why that video made me so angry but it really, really did. Sorry for going off, it wasn't your video.

But I think we are in agreement that the timeline is a little wonky. Not enough to detract from the game though.

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Krubixcube on Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:55 am

I'm not saying the whole thing falls apart because of it but

Spoiler:
saying that his switch would be able to mobilize both Luttece and the US congress that quickly is a stretch. Again, doesn't ruin it...but it is.

In a game filled with wonderful details that detail just doesn't add up. That is literally the EXTENT to which this topic goes. You seem to think I'm attacking the games thematic underbelly by saying the game doesn't hold up on one detail. Nope...just trying to say that one detail doesn't really work.

That said, I DO agree the guy goes too far in his video, but some of his points are perfectly valid despite his overall point being a bit silly. Saying the game doesn't WORK is a bit much, but there are some logical flaws in the ending. There are logical flaws in almost every movie I like, but if the movie is good enough I get past their existence. Same thing here.

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Nephilimi on Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:47 am

But there's a big difference between what we are saying about the timing being a little suspect and what he was saying about how
Spoiler:
adopting religion wouldn't cause that big of a change. I think he even says that Levine must have a crazy idea about what happens during a baptism. That's bullshit for all the reasons I gave.

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Krubixcube on Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:45 am

Yeah, I threw that point out as well because that's obviously someone not accepting a more literary change in a character, but the timing and the Luttece point is valid.

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Krubixcube on Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:59 am

Zero Punctuation review is out...he makes some good points to. I'd say I 80% agree with it:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/7105-BioShock-Infinite

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Nephilimi on Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:11 am

Don't you mean second sequel Yahtzee... GET OUT! Lmao

Another great review from Yahtzee. I just disagree about the sky hooks. That was a cheap, useless gimmick on anything but easy, or without winter shield.

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Rainjar on Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:28 am

Well that started off amazing but by the end was extremely disappointing and underwhelming. Will just link to the Campster video on it as it pretty much sums up how I felt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ2cSKBFBDQ

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

Post by Nephilimi on Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:17 am

It's funny how much of Comstock's dialogue at the end foreshadows the ending. Every line is so clever once you know the ending.

I found an interesting voxophone that missed
Spoiler:
Comstock talks about how his commander said there were some teepees in his family tree and none of the other soldiers called him comrade. It was only when be burned all the teepees with the Indians inside that they accepted him. Only blood pays for blood. Pretty cool because it shows why Comstock/DeWitt was a racist and how DeWitt was a racist. Or rather than his valour at Wounded Knee was like self hate.

I'm still wondering who Lady Comstock is? The second playthrough made me question her background even more.
Spoiler:
She talks about Comstock being a monster but that he forgave her. But forgave her for what?

I only died once on my 1999 playthrough because I was so careful. I thought it would be way tougher. I died against that stupid handyman before Daisy's scene and luckily he glitched out and disappeared.

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Re: This thread is about Bioshock Infinite

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