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Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by avidacridjam on Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:40 am

TripOpt55 wrote:Another small thing I really liked about this episode was Tywin mentioning Dorne's history and how them being in the fold if Dany came over with her dragons would be a plus. I like when they can work bits of the history of the world into the show. Particularly with Dorne since it was kind of an unknown before Season 4 to a lot of viewers I think.

Good point. I don't think Dorne has been mentioned since Season 2, when Tyrion had Myrcella Baratheon sent away to Dorne.

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:05 am

I've been rewatching season 2...I must say, I don't particularly like Theon as a character (at least how he's presented in the TV show). Not as in "he doesn't seem like a nice guy" because that's not relevant, but his character arc still feels a bit sudden to me, even knowing his background. I know it makes sense, and they do foreshadow it coming with his douchey personality in season 1, but yet something doesn't sit right with it for me. Wouldn't claim to say he's a bad character, just doesn't click with me as someone who's all that interesting.

Also, seeing Jaime in season 2...reminds us all what a shining knight he is @_@

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by TripOpt55 on Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:37 am

I liked this one a lot more than last episode. I am wondering if we will see Jon and Bran meet up? Or maybe Bran will do some warging and take out some dudes there and be on his way before Jon even arrives. And how the fuck did they capture Ghost?

The final scene was pretty wild. Some great direction there in stark contrast to what seems like it was a complete botch job in that scene last week. Some of the visuals of the Lands of Always Winter or wherever they were were pretty awesome. This scene is totally new for me too, so it is pretty fun to be able to speculate about something new!

I liked a lot of the King's Landing scenes too. The Jaime scenes were all really good, but I couldn't stop myself from thinking about the rape scene from last week. The way those scenes were presented this episode makes me think they did not intend last week's sept scene to be rape (which is too bad because it was definitely rape as presented). And the Jaime scenes play a little odd because of it. I don't know I'm curious to hear what everyone else thinks. Also when Bronn slapped Jaime with his golden hand I laughed out loud!

They finally spelled out the whole of the plot to kill Joffrey (or I think it is the whole of it at least). If you go back and rewatch the Wedding episode you can actually see the moment Olenna takes a jewel off of the necklace which was a neat detail.

Also I joked all week to some fellow book reading friends that with the slightly older Tommen in this show, they'd cut Ser Pounce, but they did not! Hooray for Ser Pounce! Best member of the Kingsguard!

Great episode this week.
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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:47 am

I actually didn't like this episode as much. Visually it felt a bit...lame, I can go into details, but wouldn't want to bore you with a long rant.

I totally agree with you Trip, unfortunately it just looks like they botched last week's scene. And that's a blemish on an otherwise well-written show. If ALL the actors and the director don't know for 100% certain that you're filming rape...you fucked up. I mean, yes, this is a VERY male-dominated world and Cersei and Jaime were lovers so rape could obviously be reacted to differently but that's still just thinking logically. Overall, it WASN'T the signal of a big turning point for the character (at least not yet) and for that...I am disappointed that I was wrong.

But yeah, I guess I'm just not as invested in things north of the wall...personally. I mean, it's a great set up episode, there's a LOT of things moving forward, and for that I liked it but I would say weaker than last week overall. Needed more Charles Dance haha. My girlfriend also disagrees and liked this week more but hey, can't please 'em all.

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by avidacridjam on Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:39 am

Not that I like discussing rape at any length but just curious: did Khal Drogo's marital rape of Daenarys in Season 1 affect your perception of either character or the relationship?

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by avidacridjam on Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:11 am

Just caught up. Great episode overall.

Post-rape, its clear that Cersei and Jaime's interactions will only be determined by necessity and Jaime's role as Kingsguard Commander, never as lovers or even friends. Even if the rape never occurred I bet Cersei would've continued to treat him this way, considering she sees him as a cripple and a betrayer (for having left her so long, as she said to him in the first episode) and unloyal (he won't kill their brother or go on a manhunt for Sansa). I'm convinced that whatever bond they had is destroyed. The rape just accelerated that progression.

Cersei's behavior over the show's history so far is fascinating. She did pay a visit to Catelyn while Bran was recovering and was sympathetic. She did question Jaimie over his decision to push Bran out the window. She didn't want Ned to be beheaded. All this time with Joffrey has clearly affected her; as he wanted things on his terms all the time, so does she, I gather. His death has made her even worse, irrational.

The scenes at Craster's Keep were horrifying. Next episode hints that there'll be a showdown between Jon's platoon and Karl and Co. and I can't wait for that. What a wretched crew. As to Bran and Jon reuniting, I hope not. If Noah Taylor's character survives the assualt (I forget his name) and comes into contact with Bran, that could be bad news. If otherwise, I predict Bran and Jon will part ways regardless.

Jaime's scenes with Tyrion and Brienne were fantastic, especially the latter. Good moments for Podrick, too.

I liked the opening scene with Grey Worm and Dany's translator. There's a poignant moment with Grey Worm unable to remember his past previous to enslavement (or to imagine a life apart from it) that had me think of - of all things - Michael Shannon's Zod in Man of Steel. There's a tragic quality to being brainwashed for a specific role in life when you can't imagine doing anything else.

I guess we won't be seeing Diana Rigg as Lady Olenna anymore. Pity. She probably serves no further purpose for the time being but every moment with her is great.

Also, I envy Tommen right now.

Speaking of which, I'm fine with these child actors growing up. I think the show has to address a longer passage of time than the books. Otherwise, a bunch of people would be recast for the worst of reasons.

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:28 am

avidacridjam wrote:Not that I like discussing rape at any length but just curious: did Khal Drogo's marital rape of Daenarys in Season 1 affect your perception of either character or the relationship?

It portrayed Drogo as a brute at first, and Danyrus as someone completely not in power. That said, I didn't think that rape was necessary either. The same relationship could have been conveyed through other ways and would have made their subsequent love a little less tainted. And while I do understand the argument of "Logically, this thing happened in that world" these are still writers, writing characters, as George RR Martin also understood when he wrote the books. And one should ask if he achieved the same character arc and the same result without that rape scene, then what purpose did it serve? If nothing, then rape shouldn't be treated so lightly in my opinion. That said, even if it wasn't in good taste, it did show a dynamic of those characters that panned out in the end, a sign of male dominance and power that is turned on its head by the end of the season. I don't see the scene in last week's episode having the same impact.

Rape is one of the worst things someone can do, and using it lightly is a bit of a cop out when its fallout isn't sufficiently weighty. But because I like the show, and the writing overall, I can overlook it, but when I rewatch season 1 (which I've been doing recently) the scene stands out as another unnecessary moment, as I think the Jaime scene will as well. I wasn't as up in arms about it as many were (the amount of editorials I saw), but I remember watching it and thinking "...huh, interesting choice." That said, some of my female friends, who are justifiably more sensitive to issues like that have been fuming over things like that, and I can't blame them really.

Not to say rape can't be used or has never been used in a way that was meaningful (the way it was used in The Sopranos comes poignantly to mind) but it's a big deal. So is killing, we're just unfortunately more desensitized to that.


EDIT: Also to address your post avid. I agree, the show's done a good job of portraying things happening in years, not months and it's to the show's credit. Also I didn't know Olenna is gone, but I'm so sad for it. She's a wonderful character and I'll miss her banter with Tywin.

As I said, the episode didn't wow me but it did set up some very exciting, very tense things to come. Also, I totes called at least part of the conspiracy to poison Joffrey. Not surprising but interesting to see Margery moving from one king to the next in her endless vie for power. She's an interesting character, I'll be interested to see where she goes.

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by TripOpt55 on Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:58 pm

Yeah I don't really like the change to Dany/Drogo's scene either, but it doesn't affect things as negatively. It makes more sense that he would rape her in the circumstance. Not trying to give him a pass, it sucks, I still hate seeing it, but I guess him raping her makes more sense to me there than Jaime raping Cersei. But it does make her (Dany) falling in love with him have a slightly different context. Ultimately I think her arc plays out similarly either way with her taking control over her life and even changing him to a degree. I also watched the first season before I read the first book where I'm obviously in the other position now, so I may be viewing it differently there too, but I don't think so.

I do agree that the scene this week between Jaime and Cersei played out exactly how it would have if the rape didn't occur which again was one of my worries. Then why do it at all? Them drifting apart seemed like the way things were going. Cersei being mad at Jaime for not returning to her sooner, blaming him for not protecting Joff, and holding it against him that he is disfigured now. It is reason enough for her to treat him that way (not that its justified, but it seems like something Cersei would do) and to cause Jaime to want to distance himself. But now people may look at this differently because Jaime raped her. Which is a large part of what I was prattling on about last week.

And I did look into why I thought Jaime was against rape and it was something he'd never do. Obviously the saving Brienne from rape thing. When he was a young Kingsguard he mentioned how it was their job to defend the Queen as well which means they should step in against the King raping Rhaella, but the rest of the guard say otherwise. And a possible future show spoiler that was coming to mind:

Book Spoilers:
Jaime more or less beheads a guy in A Feast for Crows for raping Pia.

Of course, that is book Jaime, but I'm not convinced they don't want the same thing from his character in the show. And watching this episode, made me think they just totally botched the execution of scene last week and didn't intend it to be viewed the way it was.

Even if you don't think Jaime is on a redemption arc of some kind, they clearly tried to frontload his worst actions at the beginning of the series and starting in Season 3 give you a different side of him. Not just with his actions, but even hearing why he really killed King Aerys. They want the viewers to change their mind on him which is why they reveal that when they did. I don't think he'll ever get "redeemed" in any full way. I don't know where his arc eventually goes, but I do think they intended their to be two clear sides of him to this point. So the rape on top of being something that I don't think Jaime would do. On top of being something that might change the way people view the two characters drifting apart. I think it would just feel odd. And his scenes with Tyrion, Bronn and Brienne all feel like the Jaime we'd been seeing recently.

Maybe I am reacting too soon still. Maybe they will make more of this later, but at the moment I just don't see how it fits. Part of my reaction is that the show had done this before and added things for shock value. Throw in stuff like killing Talisa (and in a very violent way of stabbing her in her pregnant stomach to boot) and their first original character on the show being a prostitute who gets killed rather violently last season, and there might even be an odd pattern here.

On the other hand, I love some of the stuff the show has added. For instance, I think Tywin, Margaery and Olenna are all much better in the show and I'm glad they weren't afraid to add a bunch of scenes with them.
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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:02 am

I'm with you Trip. I think me and you are on the same page with this one. We both are waiting to see it...matter, and you're 100% right in saying that everything we saw with that interaction this week could have happened without the rape. I think rape is just a very tricky subject and despite how long film and tv have been around it's very rarely been handled right.

Also, not to say it was BAD, but just on a very personal level I HATE seeing mentally challenged people abused so the rounding up/stabbing of Hodor really disturbed me this week. Made me feel VERY sorry for the lovable guy ;_;

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by ajapam on Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:30 am

My favorites this week were the Jaime scenes. Loved seeing him pass his sword off to Brienne. And the legend of Podrick lives on. If they don't address the rape thing and Jaime continues on his good path I'll just look at it as his final douchebag Lannister moment that forced him to re-examine himself or whatever. Maybe they just botched it but that'll work well enough for me

Bran entering the mix more is pretty cool, too. They've been mucking about far too long. The guys at Craster's Keep are just the worst. And Hodor! :(I'm generally not a big fan of the Whitewalker stuff, though. Wildlings, Castle Black, and Bran are all getting interesting, but the Whitewalkers are still kind of hard to get excited for. Especially when winter has been coming for almost 4 years now.

I thought it was kind of weird how Danaerys' scenes played out this week. I was sure last week was leading straight into a rebellion right after. It seems like the masters would've done a lot more to make sure their slaves wouldn't turn on them after what happened, too. But I liked the payoff with her nailing all the masters to crosses. She seems too perfect for this show sometimes so it's nice when they remind us that maybe she won't just sail across the narrow sea and fix everything in Westeros to end the series.

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:33 am

I think Game of Thrones simplifies the slave issue a bit much if you ask me. If it were as simple as "you outnumber them, kill the masters" slavery wouldn't have existed in our world as long as it did...and as it does.

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by ajapam on Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:40 am

Well, in our world the people trying to free slaves didn't have dragons. So there's that

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by Motinator on Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:19 pm

So I've been watching the latest episodes with some people who have also read the books. After that episode, we felt that the show is taking a little bit too much liberty. They've unquestionably done great things, like Arya and Tywin scenes, extra Margaery and Olenna. But it seems like they're going overboard with the extra knowledge that they have from GRRM. I don't know if you guys saw the story about the last episode's summary and the book spoilers. The fact that they did this right after the rape issue, with the previous episode, makes me wonder if they're just causing all of this controversy for ratings.
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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by TripOpt55 on Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:14 pm

As much as I hate the rape thing, I feel like changing Bran's story a bit is fine. He doesn't have a lot to do and is way out in front of most storylines. He'll definitely be in Winds of Winter material by next year, so if your friends are worried about the show spoiling things before the books reveal it, maybe that change isn't so bad.

As for the other end thing, that kind of confirmed a theory that was going around, one that to this point GRRM wouldn't have been able to include due to the POV structure. They are definitely taking some liberties with knowledge they have, but this is the bed GRRM climbed into by signing on for the adaptation. The showrunners have the right to do this sort of thing. Where I personally draw the line is whether the change/addition is going to negatively affect things.

As for what was revealed in the HBO viewer's guide well that was absurd. Given they edited it out that seems like a big blunder.

I honestly can't see GRRM finishing the two books left before the show does, so maybe I am resigned to seeing some things in the TV show first. I imagine Winds of Winter releases next year. If it is before the season, we probably don't see much of that books material on screen first. If after, I feel like Bran's will at least have to delve into that sort of thing in Season 5. His story seems way out of whack compared to most others to me.

I think what I'm saying is GRRM needs to hurry the fuck up... haha. Maybe this episode will light a fire under his ass.
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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:17 pm

I have a feeling the show will catch up to the books pretty quickly anyway so if the writers are starting to take liberties they may as well do it now.

@Ajapam: Lol. True, the Union didn't have dragons as far as I know...

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by TripOpt55 on Mon May 05, 2014 4:16 pm

I enjoyed last night's episode while watching it, but thinking back on it now it feels a little lackluster. Like there wasn't a lot of scenes that really stuck with me.

I am glad Karl and the mutineers got what was coming to them. They were the worst. I'm not sure I get Locke's gameplan though. He was going to run off with Bran and do what? How was he going to get past the wall with him?
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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by avidacridjam on Mon May 05, 2014 6:01 pm

I think it had plenty of great scenes.

Usually nothing can phase Tywin but (and this has been hinted at the 2nd episode) the crown's big-ass debt to the Iron Bank has got him considerably worried in his scene with Cersei. The reason they need support with the Tyrells is hammered home.

Cersei's little scene with Margaery Tyrell was great. I thought I was going to see a repeat of last season's similar season where Marg tries to get too buddy-buddy with Cersei and the latter brought up "The Rains of Castamere". Fortunately, Marg displayed better tact in her behavior and Cersei kept herself restrained.

And Marg clearly has her hooks in Tommen. Clever girl.

I haven't thought about Arya's brief tutelage under Syrio in so long. The way The Hound assessed the worth of that was both funny and brutal. I recall some people thinking/wishing that Syrio survived his last stand with Meryn Trant back in season one (well, he did subdue 3 other knights with that wooden sword).

Dany's decision to stay behind and keep her cities liberated was huge. She now has the numbers and the ships to go to Westeros but she isn't taking her "Breaker of Chains" moniker lightly. Maybe this'll make her a more effective ruler or perhaps she'll get bogged down in trying to change what is essentially a slave-centric country.

Great poetic justice came to Karl. I thought Jon would've eventually got the upper hand but how fitting that one of Craster's "wives" stabs him in the back and he loses focus. That sword through the mouth was just gnarly.

Yeah, I don't know how Locke would've got Bran past the Wall. I guess we should just be thankful that he's out of the picture. Noah Taylor did just a great job being a jerk.

Ghost finally got his revenge. LOVE IT.

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by TripOpt55 on Mon May 05, 2014 6:23 pm

I did like the reveal about the gold mines in the Westerlands drying up (or however it is put). Iron Bank getting a lot of mentions lately it seems too. Also acknowledgements that Myrcella exists are always good.

I am curious about non-book readers thoughts about Littlefinger's role in Jon Arryn's death and Dany staying in Meereen. For the reasons you said, I like her deciding to stay, but I know some people are frustrated with her not being in the main action yet.

Also I love the look of the Eyrie in the show. Seeing it for the first time is a moment that I still remember from Season 1.

The Ghost/Jon reunion was nice. I still have no clue how they wrangled Ghost in the first place.
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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Mon May 05, 2014 9:11 pm

As a non-book reader: I think for Dany's character...it makes sense for her to stay, and I actually liked the reveal that everything isn't fine and dandy in the lands she left behind. As for Littlefinger's role in Jon Arryn's death...WHAT?! Scheming mother fucker. I knew that guy was dangerous but it's only just dawning on me how much so. Makes his interactions with Stark in season 1 have an even more sinister edge.

I liked the episode overall, but I have the same complaints about Locke.

a. how did he know bran was up there (assuming that was his plan all along)
b. how was he going to get him back
c. ...eh?

Just felt like an almost humorously villainous thing to do...I mean, it would have made more sense for him to be sent as an assassin or something but...yeah, that plot thread didn't work.

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by TripOpt55 on Tue May 06, 2014 4:24 am

Locke would have been better off having Jon bring Bran back to Castle Black and trying to steal away with him in the night somehow. This just kind of feels like Locke becomes a moron because Bran has to continue his trip North. I don't know it isn't a big deal, just something where afterwards, I was like, "Hey wait a second."

It did give me the hilarious image in my mind of Locke trying to scale The Wall with Bran (the kid who plays him is getting so tall now) on his back. So it wasn't all for naught.
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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by avidacridjam on Tue May 06, 2014 8:28 am

He's not fucking MacGuyver. He was just making it up as he went along.  Wink

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Tue May 06, 2014 8:41 am

But didn't he go in order to find them? Or was that ominous music for nothing...

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by avidacridjam on Tue May 06, 2014 9:49 am

Yes, he was hired by Bolton to find Bran and bring him back to the Dreadfort.

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by ajapam on Tue May 06, 2014 12:11 pm

I'm kind of disappointed that the whole Locke plot was resolved so quickly. Usually this show doesn't do that. As for how he knew Bran was up there, he didn't. He just went to Castle Black because he figured Bran might go there to meet up with Jon. No idea how he planned to get Bran back, though

Also the whole revelation about Littlefinger was crazy. He makes everyone else look like an amateur

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by avidacridjam on Tue May 06, 2014 1:43 pm

He knew about Bran's connection to Jon Snow, which is why he went undercover to join The Night's Watch. He overhears Jon and Sam talking about Bran's position up north (since Sam brought them past the wall). I may be a little fuzzy about the details but the possibility of intercepting Bran at Craster's Keep is what makes Locke volunteer for Jon's party.

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Tue May 06, 2014 6:24 pm

That makes more sense but it's still pretty coincidental, which for any other show would be fine but in a show that's all about the details it feels a bit rushed.

Also, poor Sansa...never catches a break does she?

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by TripOpt55 on Tue May 06, 2014 6:48 pm

All that is true. He gets into Castle Black. Spies on Jon and Sam. Convinces them to let him go to Craster's. Gets to scout the Keep. And then after all that time his plan is to... run off with Bran with a giant wall in his way? It seems rather silly to me.

My goal before the season is out is to get avid to admit this show did something wrong!
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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by avidacridjam on Tue May 06, 2014 8:14 pm

You can't sleep throughout the night unless I agree with you. Oh, how I love this.

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by TripOpt55 on Tue May 06, 2014 8:47 pm

You've got me all wrong. I'd gladly take you saying something I loved actually sucked if it meant you'd say one bad thing about the show!
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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by avidacridjam on Tue May 06, 2014 9:55 pm

It doesn't affect me one bit that you or T-Wolf have had complaints about the season. Upon closer scrutiny I'm sure I could find plenty of faults.

Two episodes after the fact I'll admit that the rape was botched, that they had an opportunity to honestly explore the consequences (e.g., like the Buffy tv series when Spike attempted to rape Buffy) and didn't. It doesn't ruin the show or put that bad of a taste in my mouth but it'll stick out like a sore thumb.

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