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Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by ajapam on Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:13 am

The Stannis scenes felt like they were just covering the same old ground. Lord of light, red sex lady, bad stuff happens, that guy disagrees, etc. Seeing Stannis' wife in the whole ordeal was something new this time, at least, but I know who these people are already. I'm more interested in what they do

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by TripOpt55 on Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:34 am

The Stannis scenes felt like these perfunctory mandatory check-ins on characters we hadn't seen yet this year. Similar to some of Bran's last season. Like we don't have anything to do with these people right now, but we need to acknowledge their existence. Not even any good Davos moments. I really wish Stannis was less of Mel's bitch than he is too.
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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:21 pm

I feel like Stannis is near breaking point though. He's been a lot less fanatical recently, but then again, two of the red lady's predicted ursurpers are dead so maybe he's due for a zealous comeback?

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by ajapam on Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:35 am

This week felt like more of a set-up episode, which I guess is to be expected. Little Finger threw my predictions about Joffrey's death a bit out of whack. Jaime is apparently a rapist now (and with his dead son in the room. holy shit.) No idea what to think about him anymore. Tywin reaching out to Oberyn was also unexpected.

The Stannis scenes this week were some of my favorites for him but I think the highpoint of the episode was Tyrion and Podrick in the jail. Also liked the duel and everything surrounding it

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by TripOpt55 on Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:55 am

The rape scene really bugs me. It feels like it just undoes Jaime's recent character development. Blech. Not sure what they were thinking there.

The Stannis scenes were actually pretty good. I particularly liked the Davos/Shireen scene though maybe that wasn't a Stannis scene! That was a cute one though.

Tywin was pretty great like usual in both his scene with Tommen and Oberyn. I wish two odd sex scenes didn't sit right next to those, but whatever.

Other good stuff: the Dany duel, the Tyrion/Pod scene, the Hound and Arya (these two are hilarious together), Littlefinger/Sansa.

Kind of boring: the Sam/Gilly stuff. Snooze.

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by ajapam on Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:34 am

I just read that the director was going for the same feel as in the books (in which it was apparently consensual.) If that's true he screwed up big time, cause I didn't see that AT ALL. So now we either have a complete undoing of Jaime's character or they'll act like this never happened. Both scenarios are really troubling to me.  I'm really disappointed with the handling of this, especially considering the quality the show usually maintains. I can only hope that they somehow found some delicate way to write the whole thing off and bring Jaime back on his original trajectory

Edit: Just read something where the director basically says the opposite. I don't even know what's going on

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:11 am

My interpretation of the rape scene was that he knew he was going to have to kill Tyrion now, because he loves Cersei, but he hates himself for it and it was that anger that kind of drove it. Like that act is the epitomy of him, he'll kill someone he loves and respects because he loves someone who is horrible.

As for "undoing" the Jaime thing...I don't know guys, this is a man who pushed a child out of a window, who killed loads of people while he was in captivity. He's a knight, but he is an asshole, and he's been pushed perhaps in a direction that we don't want him to go. I mean, we all wanted Rob Stark to take revenge, and we all WANT Jaime to continue being a good guy but I don't know. IF, and this is a big if, if they handle it right, Jaime's transformation could be unwelcome but not poorly executed.

Not to say I thought it was necessary or I would have done it that way myself but I guess I think it's too early to see it as being the wrong choice yet.

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:18 am

Just to add, I read an interview with the director now that Ajapam said there was one. This is an interesting quote that I think (in part anyway) backs up someone of my rambling (maybe)

"He [Joffrey] is their first born. He is their sin. He is their lust, and their love – their everything. If he's gone, what's going to happen? Jaime is still trying to believe as hard as he possibly can that he's in love with Cersei. He can't admit that he is traumatized by his family and he's been forced his whole life to be something he doesn't want to be. What he is -- but has to deny -- is he is actually the good knight, like Brienne."

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by TripOpt55 on Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:54 am

Please link these interviews so we can clear up one thing first: does the director think Jaime raped her or that it turned consensual? Then I can decide if the writers made an intentional decision that Jaime would rape Cersei in this situation, or if they just totally botched the execution of the scene. Like ajapam said, I've read him say both.

Because their is no question it comes across as rape on screen. And that the average viewer will look at Jaime's growth over the past season as taking a step backwards. So if they continued the kind of arc they had been during Season 3 going forward now, it might all fall a little flat to viewers right?

I hate the comparison to Bran being tossed out the window. Given the times these events happen makes them have very different consequences for the character. I know he is not all the sudden a good guy since last year. He's still struggling to come to terms with that, but this act still doesn't sit right with me (and to be honest I feel this act is out of character for just about any version of Jaime so far).
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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:59 am

Hold on, link to the one I quoted is...here

I don't know if he explicitly says but there's NO way they had that in the edit room floor and DIDN'T see that was a rape scene. I do want to say, I TOTALLY agree with you. If in the following episodes this rape scene doesn't have a fallout, and mark a turning point for his character's progression then yes, it is a horrible, out of place scene that will not hold up well with repeat viewings.

Fair enough on the Bran thing, but I think the important thing is, he's come back to King's landing and he doesn't know who he is anymore and he's in love with a woman who's a monster and to do that he has to be one himself. At least, that's what I HOPE the rest of the season turns out to show, or, as you said, it will end up just being a completely out of place shock scene with no value.

Maybe I've just watched a lot of fucked up shit so I guess it didn't BUG me too much, but I wont disagree with either of you in saying that if it WAS a deliberate choice to alter that scene for reasons we HOPEFULLY have yet to see then they could have done it better.

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by TripOpt55 on Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:12 am

He definitely says he raped her in there. Well I guess we wait and see what they are doing with this then. Like you said earlier maybe they are just going somewhere with this and I don't see it yet or perhaps I just don't want to see it since I liked Jaime's current trajectory.

In the mean time I am preparing some crow for you to eat when you are totally wrong about this Twolf.



Edit: I think you added some stuff to your last reply after I posted this, but hey the gif is still funny... I'll leave it!
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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:24 am

I only hope I'm not wrong because if I am then that scene was pointless and below the normal standard of quality by a whole lot.

Also, that arm looks delicious so whatever man <_<

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by TheMatt on Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:52 am

Speaking of Jamie Lannister and gifs... Here's one that my friend sent me the other day that I'm still laughing about.


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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by ajapam on Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:39 pm

I like your theory, Twolf. I'm willing to go with it for the time being until I see where it leads. It just sounds like they got wayyy out of whack with the source material from what I'm hearing, and that starts to worry me when it comes to any show. And if it's just an out of place shock value scene then that's just poorly done.

One of my friends told me he thought Joffrey would fall on top of them during the scene. I laughed so hard at the thought of that

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by TripOpt55 on Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:07 pm

I love that Jaime gif... haha.

Make sure to chime in on the other stuff from this ep Twolf. There was more than that rape scene last night!
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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:05 pm

There was? =p

I really liked the rest of the episode. I mean, it was slower but it set up a lot of things that I was wondering about. I liked the Danny ending with the collars as well. Cool speech as well.

Also...Charles Dance...is such a bamf. The pre-rape Tywin monologue was amazing and Tommen seems like a not psychopath which is cool and all but now that the power vacuum is reopened everyone's probably going to die.

OH OH and hte Tyrion, Podrik (sp?) scene almost made me cry. He's so loyal!

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by avidacridjam on Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:35 am

Just watched the episode so I figure I'll start by weighing in on the now-infamous rape scene.

From Alan Sepinwall's review over at hitfix.com:

"When I interviewed Alex Graves about "The Lion and the Rose," we also spoke briefly about the Jaime/Cersei scene and about how the encounter starts out as Jaime forcing himself on her, then turns into something else. This is what he said:

"Well, it becomes consensual by the end, because anything for them ultimately results in a turn-on, especially a power struggle. Nobody really wanted to talk about what was going on between the two characters, so we had a rehearsal that was a blocking rehearsal. And it was very much about the earlier part with Charles (Dance) and the gentle verbal kidnapping of Cersei's last living son. Nikolaj came in and we just went through one physical progression and digression of what they went through, but also how to do it with only one hand, because it was Nikolaj. By the time you do that and you walk through it, the actors feel comfortable going home to think about it. The only other thing I did was that ordinarily, you rehearse the night before, and I wanted to rehearse that scene four days before, so that we could think about everything. And it worked out really well. That's one of my favorite scenes I've ever done."

Read more at http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/review-game-of-thrones-breaker-of-chains-uncle-deadly#92CuXIYb2JMe9vQ8.99

I don't like rape in films or tv, even when its handled appropriately. I've seen rape scenes that felt forced, that  had added to the detriment of otherwise fine films (Once Upon A Time In America, The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo) and rarer, to films that treat that ugly act with proper context within the story (Irreversible, Rocco & His Brothers). Context is everything and understanding why Jaime acted as he did is important for that scene to work, even if its unpleasant.

Guys, in case you've forgotten, Jaime Lannister is a piece of shit. A disillusioned piece of shit (as of late) but a piece of shit nevertheless (he's one of my top 5 favorite characters but not because he's likable). Fine, he saved Brienne from being raped from Bolton's men and mauled to death by a bear but my interpretation of that is that keeping Brienne alive was important to him, not protecting her honor. He wouldn't act as he did if it didn't somehow work to his advantage (true, he respects her). He's really not that different from The Hound.* His goal for the past 2 seasons was to get back to King's Landing, to Cersei. Now he's there and Cersei has treated him like he's been dipped in shit.

There's no telling how many tweets or Facebook posts that have read something like "I just want Arya to ninja kill all these Lannisters" despite the fact that this would never happen. In my opinion, the Lannisters will destroy themselves. It will be gradual, piece by piece but its rotten to the core and nothing like that is meant to survive. It began with this affair between Jaime and Cersei and what a cruel twist of fate for them that that bond is now destroyed. Cersei started the hammering of the nails. Jaime just put the final nail in. Jaime went through hell to get back to her and was celibate the entire time. We know for sure that Cersei took Lancel Lannister to bed with her during Jaime's absence. Makes me wonder what he'll do if he ever finds out about that.

Rape scenes like that are hard to gauge (very reminiscent of a rape scene in Peckinpah's Straw Dogs) but I'm glad they didn't linger too long even if I felt the cutaway was a little too soon to determine the transition to consenual sex (Cersei ceases to fight him off near the end). I don't wish rape on anyone, especially in fiction, now matter how detestable I find Cersei. I suppose the reason I can stomach it is that it hammered home the point that THIS is the condition of their relationship, an affair that started all this mess. It didn't feel cheap or tacked on. They deserve each other and its alarming to see them at odds.  But that's just it: they're poison.

*Everyone thinks The Hound is awesome but he's far from a saint and he's putting up with Arya not because he cares for her but because he wants to make a trade for her that'll benefit him financially. And the last time I checked, The Hound is still on her list.

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by avidacridjam on Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:55 am

Now, for the less problematic material:

I've made it known many times that I love what Charles Dance does here. Between his scene in the sept and his scene with Oberyn, its a reminder that no one has thought of him come awards time.

A little Diana Rigg/Olenna is always great. It was good to know how the Tyrells are going to manage their hold on the throne after this mess. And I have to mention how stunning Natalie Dormer has been. She hasn't been seen that much since season 2.

The Hound's impatience at the dinner table was hilarious. His justification for robbing the farmer was pretty poignant and a reminder that winter is coming, the latter of which I bet Arya has forgotten.

Yeah, what can I say about Tyrion and Podrick that hasn't been said? "There was never a more faithful squire."

The wilding/cannibal attack was just vicious. So many people are angry at Jaime right now. Honestly, I'm not too particularly fond of Ygritte after that scene.

Good to see Aiden Gillian return as Littlefinger. Poor, poor Dontos.

Even the Stannis/Davos sequences were good. Stephen Dillane is fun when he's angry.

Love the last shot of the slave and his master.

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by ajapam on Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:30 pm

I forgot to talk about the hound/arya scene. Reminding us that characters are dicks seemed to be a common thread this episode. That scene was kind of sad to me for that reason. Not because I want them to go on awesome adventures for the rest of the series (since that would make no sense) but I just love every scene with them together.

I was starting to think winter was just an urban legend in Westeros. That and Casterly Rock

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by TripOpt55 on Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:04 pm

I hate to keep yammering on about the rape, but I'm going to have to. I've read that interview that you posted avid. Graves in two interviews has mentioned it was supposed to turn consensual and be more the complicated scene it was in the books then how I believe it comes across on screen. But in other interviews he calls it rape. The showrunners have called it rape. Anybody who watches that is going to see it as rape. And that is what is going to be important to the relationship and characters' progression going forward. So if they intended it to be something other than rape, I really think they've failed on that front. Maybe Cersei will say something in a future episode to indicate it wasn't and this will all be a non-issue, but right now that is how it is seen especially to those who hadn't read the book (I think it is easier if you've read the book to try and see that as consensual since that will be one's notion of it before it appeared on screen, but even then it is unquestionably more consensual in the books).

I've read so many arguments for and against this, but I still feel like I did that first night. I hate the "Jaime's a piece of shit, so he'd totally rape her" argument. Just because he has done terrible things, doesn't mean raping Cersei or anyone is something he'd do. It feels inconsistent with his character in my opinion.

The thing I do think has weight is that she has been turning him away since he got back to KL. So even though I still don't think a rape feels like something Jaime would do, maybe those events (he arrives to King's Landing later in the books) would change how this scene plays out. I don't think it'd go this way, but I can buy that argument. Though I'd have gotten rid of this scene altogether since they had him come back sooner. It makes less sense now.

The best thing I have heard is Twolf basically saying they are going with a direction I'm not expecting and that the show writers are going to make this payoff. And that I can wait and see on.

I think if it is a case of trying to show Jaime is still not a good guy, this was a bad way to do it. There were other ways to illustrate this. Because this changes the nature of the Jaime and Cersei's relationship and how they will feel about each other going forward. It also isn't the first time the TV writers have changed a complicated but consensual sex scene to rape (Dany and Drogo's wedding night), so maybe I'm not giving the writers the benefit of the doubt here. I'd argue this was a worse change due to the circumstances and characters involved too.

Also just for you avid since you read the books.
Book Spoilers:
I feel the arc in the books plays out the way it does partly because Jaime slowly realizes that Cersei doesn't love him the way he loves her. Stuff like finding out about Lancel and the Kettlebacks and then it leading to him burning that letter. When you throw him raping her into the mix I feel it throws off the balance there. Sure she banged some dudes, but he raped her. Maybe I'm wrong. But I am just seeing this throwing off that future arc to TV watchers only. Given how TV watchers reacted to the scene, I am inclined to believe I'm right.

There is always the factor that due to the weird relationship they have Jaime doesn't feel he raped her. But what I keep thinking of is how people will view it and him going forward. I give Twolf some credit because his unwavering faith in the show writers helped to cool me down. I'll give them a chance to deal with the aftermath of this. It could be played a way that allows it to make sense.

Also hopefully I don't come across as some pedantic book fan. I'm not against change (I have praised some recent changes), but this one seems detrimental. I hope I'm wrong. Hopefully it also understood I respect everyone's opinion on this. I always worry about getting in these kind of discussions in text form.
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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by avidacridjam on Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:52 pm

Fair enough. Its a tricky subject. Again, I don't feel that Jaime rapes "because he's a bad man" but because of Cersei's repeated rejections and icy mood towards him. Its a disturbing scene without the rape. But I think some people felt Jaime was truly going on this path to redemption and I feel that's a misinterpretation or that they had different expectations. If Jaime feels regret over his actions that could help.

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by TripOpt55 on Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:03 pm

Yeah your reasoning for why he would do it is the most reasonable even if I think it is too far a leap for Jaime to make. I don't think we see eye to eye on what they are trying to do with him as a character, but I guess I'll have to wait and see how it plays out.

So why do you think he saved Brienne? That is one thing I didn't quite get from your post. It may just be going over my head though.
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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:19 pm

I read another interview with Jaime's actor (who's name is hard to spell) and he was saying that the line he says "Why did the gods make me love a hateful woman" for him was at the heart of the scene. Not to mention George R.R. Martin's response to the scene where he mentioned the setup for Jaime in the TV show has been completely different as well.

But I think avid sums it up well, it's hard to watch but hopefully there is some thought behind it by the actors and directors. And as Trip said, if it ends up being that the director wasn't there to edit it properly for that rape to turn consensual (which, I will still note is not any sweeter or nicer of an act), then that sucks.

I think though, as I've watched...a lot of fucked up shit, the rape scene just didn't register with me as strongly as it did with most people and I don't know why. I watched it, thought "well that was fucked up but kind of made sense for his character" (for reasons I said above) but then kind of immediately forgot about it until almost every av site and forum (no offense intended) started talking about it.

Avid's interpretation for it I think it is close, if not slightly different, to my own. Jaime's not necessarily redeeming himself, but more that he wants to be a good guy, he wants to appear noble and honorable when maybe he isn't at all. If they handle it right, and if Jaime's character progression changes then I think us even having this conversation could show how interesting of a character he is that we as an audience feel betrayed when he does something like that.

In the end (at least in my interpretation) Jaime's character is like the two women in his life. Beautiful, lustful but hateful and destructive (Cersei) and ugly, simple, noble but with no real power (Brienne). And I think internally he's struggling with that constantly.

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:28 pm

Av Club has something posted today as well

I think the thing that bugs me though is this reaction I've heard that if it was "intended to become consensual" that suddenly makes it OK or...not rape. Fuck that. Jaime made a decision to rape Cersei and whether she tells herself it's fine by the end doesn't make it less rape, it doesn't change the dynamic of that scene because it would still be called rape at the end of the day.

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by avidacridjam on Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:34 pm

Well, I'll give Jaime this: previous to this he hasn't struck me as the rapey kind of soldier (when so many of the men he fights with will think differently) so I think the act itself is ugly to him. My read on him is that Cersei is the only woman he's ever been with and he'd want to stay faithful to her. I posted earlier that he comes to respect Brienne later (its not to everyone that you divulge the meaning of your nickname) but keeping her alive is important to the vow he made to Catelyn.

So when he forces himself on Cersei in a matter he wouldn't have previously, its not so much that he wants her body. It felt like a desperate attempt to rekindle their love, to shake her out of her apathy. I'm not saying he was right to do so but I sense that that's the reason.


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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by TripOpt55 on Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:42 pm

Edit: Came back and I think I might have misunderstood something so I cut that out.

I feel there are multiple instances of Jaime speaking and acting out against this sort of thing in the books, but I'd have to look it up. It is clear this is a whole different character though on the show especially now, so again all I can do is wait and see what they do.
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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by TripOpt55 on Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:48 am

Another small thing I really liked about this episode was Tywin mentioning Dorne's history and how them being in the fold if Dany came over with her dragons would be a plus. I like when they can work bits of the history of the world into the show. Particularly with Dorne since it was kind of an unknown before Season 4 to a lot of viewers I think.
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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by TheMatt on Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:49 am

I asked my dad, who has read all the books, about that Jamie-Cersei scene if he thought it was uncalled for or rape... this is his response--

"whatever, that bitch wanted it"

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:06 am

Your dad sounds like quite a character =p

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

Post by TheMatt on Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:24 am

Haha, he actually is extremely conservative and NEVER says stuff like that.

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Re: Game of Thrones TV Show Discussion

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