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A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion (Spoilers for first five books inside)

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A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion (Spoilers for first five books inside)

Post by TripOpt55 on Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:13 pm

Okay, not exactly sure where to start, but figured I'd throw the thread up and we can just do whatever. Speculate where the series will go next. Talk favorite characters and moments. Once again if you haven't finished A Dance with Dragons get out of this thread!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion (Spoilers for first five books inside)

Post by avidacridjam on Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:35 pm

I'd rank it my 3rd favorite of the series so far, behind A Game Of Thrones (1) and A Storm of Swords (2). I'd put A Clash of Kings lower (4) and A Feast of Crows at the bottom (5).

Despite the fact that the last two books are - for the most part - chronologically overlapping, ADOD has a stronger pace and the events are more interesting. Feast of Crows spent too much time with people like the other Greyjoys, Martells and other characters that I'm hoping will pay off in the last two books. For right now, they're distracting and I felt Martin got lost in the minutiae. He truly did with Cersei in that last book: so many chapters of her being angry, impatient and scheming. Where her character ends up at the end was good and satisfying but again, I felt the focus was lost there.

Dance of Dragons spent more time with more popular characters, yes, but that's because their storylines are growing and are unpredictable, thanks to Martin's writing. I never would've guessed where Tyrion is at by the end but it's fitting, given his character. I like how secondary characters got some time to shine, like Barristan Selmy (quite possibly the most honorable character in the series right now). Reek/Theon continued to suffer but he somehow maintained a microbe of dignity; his scenes with Roose Bolton were some of the best.

Daenarys had always been my favorite character since the first book and her absence in the previous book hurt it. Lots of good moments for her: her and Daario becoming fuck buddies right up to the night before her wedding, the increasing problems she faces for conquering/ruling Astapor and Mareen, and the problems with her dragons.

Ramsay Snow/Bolton is a vice piece of shit, pure and simple. If the tv series didn't fully convey that, the book hammered it home. What happens between him, Reek and Jeyne Poole in his bedchamber is beyond disgusting. With Joffrey well out of the way, now we have someone truly revolting to stir our bloodlust.

Bran's storyline was weird and not as well-paced as the other storylines. Reading his attempts at grapsing the warg/greensear abilities felt like I was reading jargon beyond my educational level. I skimmed through some of it but I did like how his abilities influence Theon/Reek to escape with Jeyne.

It was good of Martin to bring some storylines near the end, such as Jaimie (who, unless Martin does something amazing, is on his path to being good and screwed) and Cersei (I don't care if Robert Strong is the Mountain brought back to life; I'm convinced she's fucked as well) and Arya (who had arguably the most compelling storyline in Feast For Crows; however, I have no idea how she will ever intersect with anything in Westeros anytime soon).

Jon Snow continues to know nothing. What the hell was he thinking? Ugh, that was infuriating.

That epilogue, though? Perfection. I missed Varys.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion (Spoilers for first five books inside)

Post by TripOpt55 on Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:19 pm

I'm not totally sure how I'd rank the books since I watched Seasons 1 and 2 before reading through the books. Took the surprise out of those books for me. I think Storm of Swords is the best. After that Dance or Game of Thrones. Then Clash of Kings and Feast for Crows. Feast definitely suffers from all the things you mentioned.

My favorite characters through the whole series so far are:
1. Dany
2. Arya
3. Jaime (really grew on me obviously)
4. Jon
5. Tyrion

If I went with a non-main character I might throw Selmy in that last spot. He's awesome.

I really enjoyed Dance with Dragons, but maybe some of the storylines could have been sped up. As it stands it feels like climaxes were left for the beginning of Winds of Winter. With the two looming battles (Meereen and Winterfell) and Tyrion, Victarion and Dany or Selmy meeting up in one way or another (though I suppose at least the northern battle had to be left out since Jon "dying" was the intended cliffhanger). Still it was really cool to work towards those meetings. I haven't read the preview chapters, but it feels like Winds of Winter should start strong right from the beginning. The Theon chapters were both fucked up and pretty awesome in Dance though.

Some of my favorite moments from the series were Dany mounting Drogon and flying off in ADWD, her freeing the slaves at Astapor in ASOS and the battle between the Mountain and the Red Viper in ASOS. Really excited to see if the show can pull off the two we haven't seen yet as I thought the Astapor scene was pretty excellent. Also I loved that chapter where Arya and company are in the barn on fire fighting off men in ACOK. I was so thrilled reading that and kind of thought they left it out of the show, but when I went back and rewatched it, I realized it was just kind of lame in the show. Totally forgettable scene in the show, but for some reason I loved it in the book. Same could be said for her escape from Harrenhal which was a lot cooler in the book.

Also Jon can't possibly be truly dead. He will be back one way or another. I'm leaning towards Aegon not being a real Targaryen either.

Oh and a couple of things that went completely over my head until I looked at theories online were The Hound being the gravedigger and Jaquen being in Feast during the Citadel chapters.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion (Spoilers for first five books inside)

Post by avidacridjam on Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:26 pm

What makes you doubt that Aegon isn't a Targaryen?

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion (Spoilers for first five books inside)

Post by TripOpt55 on Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:36 pm

I honestly go back and forth on it, but here is some evidence for it:

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/156odh/spoilers_all_complete_analysis_of_the_blackfyre/

Apologies for reddit, it's a mess, but they will do a better job of explaining stuff than me. Check out the first two points at least. As pointed out there, the Varys/Kevan conversation could certainly go against it maybe. It's all obviously very loose, but GRRM loves to hide stuff like this away. Dany's visions are definitely a good place to see future stuff (the red wedding is hinted at in there among others things). Also in the totally not evidence at all category, not sure GRRM would undercut Dany's right to the throne so much (Aegon would have a better claim) since Dany seems to be one of his main characters. But hey he has been killing off most of the Starks, so what the fuck do I know.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion (Spoilers for first five books inside)

Post by TripOpt55 on Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:00 pm

Also do you have any hopes for the end of the series avid? As a Dany fan do you want her to take the throne? How do you think the Others/White Walkers are dealt with? Any other stuff like that.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion (Spoilers for first five books inside)

Post by avidacridjam on Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:14 pm

I don't buy the theory. It's an interesting one and the excerpts in that link are admittedly ones that I've forgotten or skimmed over. Unless Martin pulls some huge prank and proves otherwise (which he's welcome to do; lord knows I can rarely tell where he's going half the time), I'm of the agreement that Aegon is a Targaryen. The epilogue exchange between Varys and Kevan is a good point (why lie to someone you're just going to kill anyway? Other spies? He's the Spider, for crying out loud) but I looked over the chapters where Tyrion deduces Young Griff's true identity (and no one corrects him) or the chapter where Griff/Jon Connington gets Harry Strickland to help retake Griffin's Roost; when Aegon speaks he says:

"Then put your hopes on me. Daenerys is Prince Rhaegar's sister but I am Rhaegar's son. I am the only dragon you need."

Then there's the voiceover passage by Connington at the end of the chapter:

"Death, he knew, but slow. I still have time. A year. Two years. Five. Some stone men live for ten. Time enough to cross the sea, to see Griffin's Roost again. To end the Usurper's line for good and all, and put Rhaegar's son upon the Iron Throne."

Connington was a close ally with the Targaryens (he was the Hand during Areys) and a close friend with Rhaegar. I'm not saying it's completely impossible for outside forces (Illyrio, the GC, whoever) to have deceived both Jon and Aegon about the latter's identity, but that's pretty damn thin.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion (Spoilers for first five books inside)

Post by avidacridjam on Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:32 pm

I would like Dany to retake the throne. She has the makings for a good ruler (and not the spiteful, cronyism displayed on full by Cersei) and if Aegon survives, I'd say the realm would be in good hands.

The Lannisters are already on their way to destruction but of course I'd want Tyrion to survive. Jaime is a harder case; he's developed into a better person but his past sins may be too much for him to escape death.

It would be nice to have the Boltons dealt with as well. Somehow I see Roose surviving (assuming Stoneheart doesn't intercept him) but Ramsay has to go.

There are so many wild cards to consider. Sometimes I feel the biggest question is Littlefinger. He's arguably the guy that set all this shit in motion (the poisoning of Jon Arryn, the letter to Catelyn that points the finger at Cersei). What is his endgame?

I'd like for all surviving Stark children to make it through but the bittersweet end result may be that they never meet each other again.

I really don't see Stannis surviving or getting the throne. His biggest problem right now is taking Winterfell and not freezing to death.

The Others are another wildcard. The fate of Jon Snow may render the Wall even weaker. I don't think he'll die but what if his command is taken by someone else. What if his condition means morale drops even lower or the defenses along the Wall weaken? A lot of variables to consider. I really don't know...

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion (Spoilers for first five books inside)

Post by TripOpt55 on Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:06 pm

I'm not sure it would take a ton to convince Connington that Aegon was Aegon, but I forget when he gets introduced into the mix with young Aegon? I figure he'd jump at the chance to try and right the wrongs he beats himself up for with his mistakes with Rhaegar. Doesn't he beat himself up for his death? I guess I should take a peek back at some of this as it's a little fuzzy in my head. Definitely thin but I could see it going either way. I did forget about some of the evidence against before looking it back up though. Seemed like a little more to back it up in my mind. Would be a little sad if he wasn't Aegon though, so I'm not rooting for that. I do think its something GRRM would totally do though.

I would prefer Dany on the throne to him maybe mostly because I've been following her story so much longer and love her character so much. Despite her troubles ruling in the East, I think she's learning and would be a good ruler. Aegon certainly wouldn't step aside for her. Though I could see Aegon taking it and dying before its all over. Dany still seems so far away too. I figured for a while that her Dragons would be key to stopping The Others. Maybe she would realize that threat was more important than trying to take back Westeros at first. But she still seems like a book away from arriving in Westeros, so I'm not sure how that would work now.

Do you think Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son though? That seems to make too much sense. I definitely think it is true. I'm a little lost on how that fact would be revealed now and what it would cause though. Howland Reed knows I guess.

I'll post again with some other thoughts. Too many variables to discuss here!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion (Spoilers for first five books inside)

Post by avidacridjam on Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:35 pm

It isn't mentioned when Jon is aware of Aegon's existence. All I can tell is that at some point after Jon's exile Varys arranged for Jon to assume another identity and raise Aegon in secret until the latter was old enough and the realm was in a position to be taken over. Due to Aerys stripping Jon of his wealth, lands and titles (for his failure in the Battle of the Bells), assuming another identity (and creating the legend that Jon drunk himself to death) made him a perfect candidate to be Aegon's caregiver.

I get it; it would be a helluva twist but I want Aegon's heritage to be genuine.

I remember the question of Jon Snow's mom being brought as early as the first book. He hoped that Ned would tell him one day (scratch that). I may be mistaken but didn't he think Benjen Stark could answer this as well?

It's not a big deal to me overall but the idea that he's the spawn of Rhaegar and Lyanna would be huge. Maybe that's the reason Ned withheld the answer...


Last edited by avidacridjam on Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion (Spoilers for first five books inside)

Post by TripOpt55 on Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:56 pm

Yeah during Ned's dream/memory thing in AGOT it is inferred that in the Tower of Joy where he rescued Lyanna, she asked him to keep it a secret. Presumably because Robert was killing any Targaryens he could find and that child wouldn't be one he would take well to anyway. So if Ned pretended Jon was his kid, he'd be safe. There were Kingsguard guarding that tower too which would make more sense if Lyanna was carrying Rhaegar's son. I want to say one of Bran's tree bits in ADWD backs this up as well. And Ned not having cheated on his wife and being cage-y about the mother makes sense. There was a bit about the blue rose in the ice wall that Dany sees in the House of Undying. Some other little stuff. Benjen might know yeah. I forgot about that. He could certainly show back up.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion (Spoilers for first five books inside)

Post by TripOpt55 on Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:28 pm

I love Arya, but have no idea what I want for her or where her story is going. (sorry might make random posts in here like this as they come to me).
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion (Spoilers for first five books inside)

Post by TripOpt55 on Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:49 am

I won't spoil anything, but I just finished reading that little "The Princess and the Queen" novella and it was pretty cool. Basically about this civil war that erupted when two Targeryens made a claim for the throne when the King died. It's written differently though. Like more of a historical text than say from the perspective of one of the characters like normal. It also has some really cool insight into dragon battles and warfare. More than we'd gotten in the books at least.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion (Spoilers for first five books inside)

Post by Motinator on Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:31 am

I'm caught up! Just gave these posts a quick read. I wish I had more ideas, but that idea about Jon is really intriguing.

I too enjoyed Dance better than Feast. Crap I was scared that Tyrion was going to die, like 3 different times.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion (Spoilers for first five books inside)

Post by TripOpt55 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:50 pm

What about Victarion? Will he get a Dragon? Any thoughts on how the Battle of Meereen will play out?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion (Spoilers for first five books inside)

Post by Motinator on Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:35 am

hmmmmm, I don't think anyone without any Targaryan in them will be able to handle a dragon.

Dany shouldn't have sat around. But they must win, because she's got to make it to Westeros. It's just gonna be messier now.

How are you so sure that Jon's still breathing?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion (Spoilers for first five books inside)

Post by TripOpt55 on Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:56 am

Well, Jon might have died, but I don't think he will stay dead in that case. I will admit a large part of it is me thinking he is too important to kill already. But they have also wrote in some loopholes to bring him back. First Melisandre could bring him back like Thoros was doing for Beric. In some kind of worst case scenario he maybe at the very least Wargs into Ghost (the prologue of ADWD I believe is all about someone warging out of true death). That doesn't seem ideal though.

The way he died (if he even did) also might be related to the rebirth of Azor Ahai. His wound smokes, someone cries (reborn amongst salt and smoke) and then there is a bloody star sigil too, but I forget why (which would be the bleeding star in the prophecy). At the very least GRRM put that stuff in there to make people think it was a possibility. If he was Rhaegar's son, that would also mean he was from the supposedly right lineage for that prophecy too. Mel always sees Snow in her visions too. Though there is as much (maybe more) evidence for Dany being Azor Ahai reborn. Or maybe no one is.

I don't know. Any of that is enough for me to think he's not dead!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion (Spoilers for first five books inside)

Post by Motinator on Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:28 pm

That's pretty cool; maybe Ghost is Azor Ahai? Haha. It sure as hell ain't Stannis
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