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The Last of Us Discussion

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by avidacridjam on Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:03 pm

Just finished the story mode. My thoughts are pretty much on par with everyone else's. Probably GOTY for me.

Also,

Holy shit: that's who Nolan North was?

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by volvocrusher on Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:44 pm

Just was thinking about how much I love the ending to this game today. Every time I think of it, it gets better.

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by BretBaber on Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:29 am

A fan of the ending as well. Soon I'll have to replay it. Still only one play through.

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by TripOpt55 on Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:56 pm

Moved from the other thread.

Rainjar wrote:So one of the people I follow on Youtube released this video about The Last of Us. I'm curious to know if any of you also had any AI issues like this?



My memory is pretty hazy on how they reacted, the main thing that grinded my gears about the game was how they just ignored Ellie, as well as the sniper bit, but I don't ever remember the AI being quite that awful. I think he has an interesting point at the end of the video though. I still really enjoyed TLOU overall but I think upon a replay the opinion for it overall will turn more sour, which it has been doing for a couple of months now.

ajapam wrote:I was actually just replaying TLOU yesterday and I had some really annoying issues with the AI. I've had no problems with humans so far but at one point a clicker stopped patrolling for no reason at all and just stood in my way. It didn't even move when I threw a brick.

I also got into trouble a few times when I thought a moveable object was a drawer I could open, making every enemy notice me (despite the fact that I made absolutely no noise)

BretBaber wrote:This video brings up some good points that I didn't even realize.  

I said it the very first night I played the game, I absolutely hated how my AI counter part would run in front of them and they would just continue like they didn't see a thing.  It caused a problem that stuck with me for the entire game.

Krubixcube wrote:It bugged me too. In a game that otherwise does SO well on creating immersion, that was a big oversight.
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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by TripOpt55 on Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:04 pm

I haven't had a chance to watch the video, but the partner AI was my biggest issue with the game. I even had Tess open fire on enemies before I lost stealth status a couple times. I generally thought the enemy AI was really good though.
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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:30 am

Also, just going to say this: I watch this video and I am NOT surprised when Rainjar watches a youtube guy that thought Bioshock Infinite sucked. Just saying =p.

That said, I think...I agree with the fact that the devs could have put more of an AI system in place to factor in player weapon types etc. But complaining about the demo...well, he's not WRONG to complain, I'll say that right away, but I guess I'm just jaded enough to know an E3 demo is a far cry from a final product these days. It's more of a rule now than anything else.

Now that he's mentioned it though, it is a VERY good point about the nature of that game though. Why don't human enemies try to avoid a character with a gun? Again, the jaded side of me just says...well, they didn't have the budget/time to work on an AI system or they were working on one and it just didn't work with the environments they made etc. I mean, you never know. It's hard to find developers who will talk very honestly about their failures so maybe we'll never know.

That said, I guess I'm the type of gamer (despite how much I complain, I know) that gets very immersed in games when I play them. So the only thing I really noticed during my playthrough was the Ellie thing. I can MAYBE recall the one or 2 times an enemy glitched out by chance and I escaped but I felt pretty tense/sneaky when I did it. But I am also NOT the type of player that will try to play a game like a game.

As in, I'm the dude who will intentionally walk instead of run because it feels like story wise I should be walking. I get into it. But i suppose I can see how someone playing it purely as a sneaking game would get pissed off.


That said, if this video has proved anything to me, it's that my system of not watching videos/trailers (or at least very few) before a game is released is a good thing. I'm all about watching/playing/listening to stuff with as little expectations as possible because developers/trailers/promos LIE.

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by Rainjar on Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:12 pm

Krubixcube wrote:Also, just going to say this: I watch this video and I am NOT surprised when Rainjar watches a youtube guy that thought Bioshock Infinite sucked. Just saying =p.

WAIT A MINUTE, THAT CARD.........
One day you fools will see the light and realise how bad it is, one day!

But yeah, it's kinda depressing that you can't even take fucking gameplay trailers as being parts of the final product anymore. Man, does anyone remember Assassins Creed 1s debut in like 2006 or whatever? And Jade Raymond was going on about how you couldn't take a single hit or you'd die, how you could knock things down to block enemies, as well as making it sound like escaping after the assassination was going to be a huuuuuuuge deal? Can't wait to see how different The Division is upon release.

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by volvocrusher on Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:28 pm

I saw a clicker stand still out of nowhere twice and those were my only real AI issues. My thing was every scenario felt like the enemy had the upper hand at first and when they were down to a scenario where they didn't, they got desperate. I never really ran into a scenario where their vision was that bad either, I felt they did a good job of spotting me.

I'm actually pretty different than you T-Wolf, but in a way where the whole Ellie's out in the open shit didn't bother me either. I'm pretty much always aware I'm playing a game and I like it that way. That's why I like when games act like they're aware that their games and hate shit like Beyond being ashamed they're a game. MGS does a pretty good job, it's aware that there's goofy shit and embraces it.

My only real issue is actually with the controls, every now and then Joel would just move in a strange way, especially moving in and out of cover. But again, not enough to keep this game from being one of my favorites.

Also Rainjar your opinion on Bioshock Infinite was invalidated when you used the term "dudebro" when explaining why it sucks a while back.

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by ajapam on Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:51 pm

The friendly AI thing is annoying but it's much better than being spotted because your teammates are idiots. And friendly AI being terrible is the one universal truth of videogames

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:08 pm

Best piece of friendly AI: forcing Ashley to get in the god-damn dumpster.

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by volvocrusher on Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:57 pm

If they do make a sequel and really want to change that, they should implement something like Ashley's dumpster, along with good ways to get to it. Hell, they could even make it a challenge leading them to the hiding spot then taking out the enemies while making sure they don't check that spot with current gen tech.

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:09 am

I think they could have maybe just had an inaccessible route that only Ellie could get to. Or if it was a "you hvae to clear out the enemies" thing just have her hang back until shit gets real.

I mean, ALL of those solutions are cheating but would have been less noticeable.

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by BretBaber on Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:08 am

They could have fixed the friendly AI problem by making it co-op. Whomever controls Ellie has no weapons, and it would force you to work as a team. That would be great in my opinion.

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by volvocrusher on Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:09 am

It would be pretty boring at spots for the person playing as Ellie. Also that's a lot easier said and done. A sequel could make it work, but it wouldn't be that great in this one.

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by BretBaber on Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:11 am

It would be boring, but also completely terrifying because you're relying on Joel to be your protector.

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by ajapam on Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:48 am

I think co-op would kind of ruin the mood of the game. I'd much rather play single player.

Also, is anyone else curious about what the actual gameplay of this new DLC will be like?

Edit: It just occurred to me how this game actually gives some character to some of the enemies. That's a pretty brilliant design choice, especially now that I know how it ends
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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:05 am

I was going to say what ajapam said...then he said it. I was going to do another replay of The Last of Us when I finish my ME3 one so hopefully I don't notice it all now haha.

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by BretBaber on Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:21 am

I don't see how it would ruin the mood of the game. Only let voice chat be enabled when you're like 4 feet from the other character, and instead of relying on dumb AI to do what you want you can hopefully survive with someone else.

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by volvocrusher on Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:32 am

It definitely would kill the mood during the non combat segments. Instead of exploring every area at your own leisure to find supplies, you'd have someone rushing you and get in fights over who gets the good stuff. Not to mention there's a ton of segments where Ellie has to just wait for Joel, would make for bad co-op.

And there are some bits where you do have a different partner, which would have a shift which could be jarring for the second person. Then there's how they'd have to give your co-op partner their own special weapons and control methods, mostly for Ellie. And Joel and Ellie are on their own a few times, it's just not built for co-op, especially since the issue it would solve is so minor. It's one of those situations where the cure would be worse than the disease.

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by Miraculous Kaydybug on Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:02 am

Story-based cinematic games should NEVER have co-op NEVER. It's about making you experience the game and world. Having another person there takes away from that.

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:27 am

Not to mention you'd have to coordinate with a buddy to play a story-driven game. It would be really frustrating. If it was ALL gameplay, no story, it would be ok. So for once...Kay, take note of this, we are in total agreement.

But REGARDLESS, if you could play that co-op game without another player you'd still have an AI problem to deal with.

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by TripOpt55 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:56 am

Put me in the "co-op would be a terrible solution" camp. Everything has pretty much been covered. I mean thinking about how much certain sections would have to be changed (some of my favorite sections like Winter and the Hotel) if it was a co-op game... blech. I just couldn't see it. Even in a game like this that is so much about the core relationship of Joel and Ellie, there is something to be said for being alone at times in the game. It makes the moments together better and more impactful. And like Twolf said, it wouldn't even solve the issue in singleplayer.

I don't love the idea of making them sit back or the hiding thing either (though they could certainly work). There was something pretty cool about Ellie going "To your left" when sneaking or throwing a brick at an enemy in combat. I think ultimately big changes to this would have just changed things I liked about the game. Doesn't seem worth it at least in my mind. Maybe in a potential sequel they'll do something different and it will be better, but I just can't see it being a net positive here.

I do think there is a spot in between the current AI and having to find a completely different solution. One where Ellie and the other AI partners just do a better job of hiding and a little less running out in front of enemies blatantly. That would be best. I have to think its possible and I'm sure they tried, but couldn't quite make it better.
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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by BretBaber on Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:19 pm

Parts of the game that are meant to be single player can still be played single player, but parts of the game where multiplayer would work should be implemented. I have a cousin who would make a perfect Ellie, and I boss him around like he's Joel. So if I told him "Hang back, you'll just fucking die." He'd hang back because he'd die. The whole game as a multiplayer game wouldn't work, just have the few chapters it would work be multiplayer.

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by volvocrusher on Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:55 pm

Making only parts co-op wouldn't be the answer, adding co-op to a campaign needs to either be an all or nothing thing or have sections which flow well together on their own, neither of which would fit in The Last of Us. Who wants to be playing with themselves only to get booted out for an unspecified amount of time because of story or have a story randomly skip major plot points to cater to co-op?

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by BretBaber on Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:32 pm

I'm just going to admit defeat. Everything I said wouldn't bother me at all if it meant getting rid of dumb AI. When it comes to single player I'm all for it since I typically hate how multiplayer has ruined single player games. Do I think a great company like Naughty Dog could make something like this really work? I sure do. To me it would seem like Peace Walker beefed up.

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by Rainjar on Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:13 am

volvocrusher wrote:

Also Rainjar your opinion on Bioshock Infinite was invalidated when you used the term "dudebro" when explaining why it sucks a while back.

And I still stand by it! Infinite is awful in pretty much every way.

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by Krubixcube on Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:15 am

Especially the music, and the voice acting, and god, that art direction was APPALLING, am I right?!

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by volvocrusher on Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:46 am

No one should ever stand by the use of the word dudebro. That's like how to be pretentious 101

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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by Motinator on Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:48 am

Finally finished it!!!

Don't know if there's anything I can say that hasn't been said. Just damn. That ending.

I've played a fair amount of multiplayer with a friend. I think it's pretty great. Sneaking around as a group is a lot of fun.
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Re: The Last of Us Discussion

Post by Rainjar on Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:00 pm

Krubixcube wrote:Especially the music, and the voice acting, and god, that art direction was APPALLING, am I right?!

Can't remember shit of the music, it was that great. Voice acting as good as expected, if it was even close to Spec Ops: The Line tier then it might be something worth mentioning. Art was nice, you get that one.

So, it looks pretty. Sweet, I guess that bypasses it from all the shitty level design (Sweet a chest, I'm sure when I get the key I'll eventually be lead nearby through level design ohno wait I just need to go all the way back myself how exciting). Then let's start on the Handymen AKA the bullet sponge that holds you up for 5 minutes each time and fails at being interesting in every way that the Big Daddy succeeded. And man, Ken Levine sure is a genius, adding a 2 weapon limit along with a low ammo count and an incredible expensive upgrade system then doubling the weapon limit midway through even though they're all fucking useless compared to the few that you've managed to actually upgrade a little by now sure was just the smartest move of the year, maybe even the smartest move in gaming history.

Some may complain that the gunplay isn't very good, however those people surely cannot complain about the plasmids and their wide variety such as plant a crow trap, plant a fire trap, plant an eruptive trap, and plant an electric trap. Not only that but they really add to the realistic world, I can see how every day citizens would require drinking something that fucks with their DNA making their hands burn to the bone or just how people can get their hands on powers that allow you to control others to the point of killing others and themselves!

This is of course completely without mentioning how Infinite reflected on any progress games like Half Life 2 had made for video games and then decided to throw it all away! No longer will choices like throwing the can at the combine be hidden from you if you're mentally retarded as despite being a FPS Infinite gives you 2 big button choices for who you should throw a baseball at! And let's not forget how horrible that bridge moment was in HL2 where you could actually fall, Infinite comforts us by having moments such as escaping the tower blocked off by a railing and instead of feeling that discomfort through any gameplay we're merely told it through Bookers voice actor. Truly, this is progress.

But the story, characters and themes are what truly matter and Infinite infinitely shines in this regard. A story with bullshit left and right (omg da key bit so deep) all pays off because of its empty meta-commentary on games design. There's the characters that don't even think and are surprised when they can't carry a fuck ton of machinery to somewhere else, or parts where they're slightly horrified about the first act of mass murder then proceed to not give a fuck as you tear peoples necks in half and set them alight. Some might say they're actually very shallow but these people clearly haven't paid close enough attention to the themes. See how that rebel group gets way out of hand? Very engaging, enlightening and interesting commentary plus it makes the character themselves extremely unique and full of depth instantly.

On reflection, I take everything back about Bioshock Infinite. Clearly it is art. Clearly it is a life changing masterpiece. Clearly it's worthy of 10/10s and GOTY titles. Clearly it is the Citizen Kain of video games. Ken Levine has come to save us all, video games are finally saved.




Ohwait, they're not. Infinite is shit. It's cancerous to the very idea it wants to be, that video games can be more than just shooty shooty wizwiz games. Also, just because I need to mention it at least once in this post, dudebro.

Also to keep it TLOU related, the single player DLC is coming out on the 14th. Get hype.

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